# Carnivorism: what? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 24, 2021, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340 "2021-01-24T03:24:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Enjoy\_Slurm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/enjoy_slurm/32/3937_2.png) [@Enjoy\_Slurm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enjoy_Slurm)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/22 "2021-01-24T07:17:10Z")
Can’t think of any other animal? Really? I don’t know about where you live but around here a common predator known as the house cat is eaten alive by another common predator the coyote. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 7:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/23 "2021-01-24T07:36:50Z")
But the house cat isn’t being eaten because it is a carnivore, it is being eaten because the coyote thinks it is delicious, so the house cat isn’t risking being eaten by being a carnivore. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/24 "2021-01-24T07:38:27Z")
To the OP. If all the animals decided they would be herbivores to avoid the risk of being eaten by other predators, there wouldn’t be any predators to eat them, in which case it would be safe enough to be a carnivore. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/25 "2021-01-24T12:06:18Z")
> [@susan](#): > > I’m hoping that the cats will eat my face when I die. That actually did happen to a former coworker of mine. Her cats were in her home with her for awhile between the time she died and the time anyone was aware of the fact and sent the police to do a welfare check. ---
**Author:** ![Bill\_Door](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/50afbb/32.png) [@Bill\_Door](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bill_Door)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/26 "2021-01-24T12:39:50Z")
> [@susan](#): > > I’m hoping that the cats will eat my face when I die. I can’t find a cite, but I remember reading a report that said while a dog would wait something like five days before feasting on its dead owner a cat would start chowing down in only two. It was supposed to say something about the relative loyalty of the animals, but in my opinion it just showed that cats are more pragmatic and don’t see the point of letting meat spoil. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/27 "2021-01-24T12:42:58Z")
> [@cantelope](#): > > This isn’t true, however, your cat needs the basic constituents of a complete protein. The microbiome will adapt. The microbiome is a relatively new discovery, whereas your cat myth is an ancient urban legend, not fit for this site. **k9bfriender** is clearly a dog person, but he’s mostly right about the cats in this case. There are multiple nutritional dependencies that cats have developed over the course of their evolutionary history, not only protein. This is an excerpt from the _Encyclopedia of Animal Science_, entry “Mammals: Carnivores”, written by the late Prof. Ullrey from MSU: > The cat has a higher dietary requirement for protein because it has only a limited ability to regulate nitrogen losses in the urine-- losses that are of little consequence when nitrogen (protein) intakes are high, as they would be when whole animal prey are consumed. Further, the cat is particularly sensitive to a deficiency of the essential amino acid arginine–a deficiency that results in toxic levels of ammonia in the blood but which is unlikely when whole animals are consumed. The cat also has a dietary requirement for taurine, a sulfur-containing amino acid that can be synthesized from methionine by the tissues of most other animals after weaning. An experimental taurine deficiency results in central retinal degeneration and cardiomyopathy in the cat. Fortunately, taurine requirements of felids can be met by consuming whole animals. There are other necessary nutrients that are not found in sufficient quantity in wild plants, such as Vitamin B12, niacin, and arachidonic acid. In the wild, the only way for cats to survive is to eat meat, almost exclusively. That is why cats are considered _obligatory carnivores_. It’s not a matter of individual choice or culture, just evolution and efficiency. You can’t necessarily isolate evolution of the morphological phenotypes (claws, etc) from evolution the dietary/digestive phenotypes (carnivorous diet). The two likely evolved together in a vicious cycle. As the proto-cats became more efficient at hunting, they ate more meat. As they ate more meat, they became more efficient at digesting meat and less efficient at digesting other foods. As they became more dependant on meat diets, they hunted for more of their diet. As they hunted more, they became more efficient at hunting. And so on… With modern science it is possible to synthesize all of these nutrients from plant products. That is why I say **k9bfriender** is only mostly right; you can actually go out and buy vegan cat food. It takes time and effort for cats to adapt and stick to a vegan diet. Gut microbiome might be one reason (I don’t know anything about that), but there are other reasons. For example, plant-based proteins are more alkaline, risking a urinary tract disease (bladder stones) if not properly countered and monitored. Here’s a website with more information about keeping a vegan cat: > **[Vegan Diets and Cats - Vegan Outreach](https://veganoutreach.org/vegan-diets-cats/)** > > by Armaiti May, D.V.M, C.V.A. • Dr. May’s Veterinary House Calls In general, dogs are much easier to maintain on a vegan diet than are cats. Although cats are biologically carnivores, in many cases they can be successfully maintained on a vegan diet... ~Max ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/28 "2021-01-24T12:48:54Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > you can actually go out and buy vegan cat food. You can. And my sister in law, who is vegan and cares a lot about the morality of eating meat, tried to feed her cat vegan cat food. It didn’t go well. After about a month she returned to buying meat-based cat food. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/29 "2021-01-24T12:57:44Z")
Right, it will take time and effort from both the guardian _and from the cat_. From that article I linked to, > Many cats are very picky eaters. Although adding vegan mock meats and nutritional yeast to flavor vegan cat food will encourage many cats to eat it, there may be many cats who still refuse to eat, especially if they are sick. Cats who are anorectic for a prolonged period are at high risk for developing hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver syndrome), a serious condition that requires extensive veterinary care. Some cats may require more patience and a gradual transition from a meat-based diet to a vegan diet if they are accustomed to eating a meat-based diet. “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.” ~Max ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/30 "2021-01-24T13:16:36Z")
> [@cantelope](#): > > It’s hard to say what would have become of the dinosaurs. Perhaps in time they become vegetarian humanoids. Many dinosaurs were vegetarian. ---
**Author:** ![velomont](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8491ac/32.png) [@velomont](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/velomont)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/31 "2021-01-24T13:22:49Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > if I die as a consequence of some other creature’s predation, that beats hell out of being shot by a mugger A minor personal quibble - I would far prefer being shot by a mugger than being mauled and eaten by a puma or a pack of wolves. ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/32 "2021-01-24T13:40:28Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Right, it will take time and effort from both the guardian _and from the cat_ . From that article I linked to, - Frankly, after reading the article, I’d say any vegan trying to force a cat to adopt a moral/philosophical ideal is engaged in animal cruelty. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/33 "2021-01-24T13:41:17Z")
Perhaps the OP is seeking an interspecies golden rule: “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you” or Eat not lest you be eaten. Maybe some plants chose carnivory just to get even. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/34 "2021-01-24T13:56:21Z")
> [@Crane](#): > > Maybe some plants chose carnivory just to get even. Statistics would suggest you’re right; as a group, plants have been solely on the receiving end of animal violence since Day 1. Venus flytraps and such notwithstanding. And boy are they nursing a grudge! They outnumber us both as to number of species and number of individuals by a ridiculous ratio. It’s gonna be a bloodbath, not a sap-bath by the time it’s over. > [@velomont](#): > > > [@AHunter3](#): > > > > if I die as a consequence of some other creature’s predation, that beats hell out of being shot by a mugger > > A minor personal quibble - I would far prefer being shot by a mugger than being mauled and eaten by a puma or a pack of wolves. Here’s an 11 year old thread of mine that’s sorta on-point. More in the discussion than in the setup framed in the OP: > [@Which is more insulting: To be killed by wildlife or weather?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-more-insulting-to-be-killed-by-wildlife-or-weather/537943): > > I was watching some Discovery Channel thing about sharks when the NOAA weather alert went off announcing tornadoes in the next county. Which got me to thinking … Since humans are THE apex predator here and general all around Masters Of All We Survey, I’ve gotten used to the idea that my eventual demise will be from disease, old age, or human violence, accidental or otherwise. I think if I was to find myself being eaten by a shark, thrashed by a tornado, or hit by a meteor, my main reaction wo… As to the OP and their subsequent comments: That doesn’t even bear notice. Authentic frontier gibberish. IMO. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/35 "2021-01-24T13:59:31Z")
Animals don’t “choose” meat or vegetation – they are biologically programmed to seek out the food they evolved to eat. Carnivores have behavioral instincts to eat meat, and predatory carnivores (as opposed to scavengers) have behavioral instincts to kill prey to eat them. It’s hard to believe that the OP didn’t know this, but assuming they didn’t, this is the answer. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/36 "2021-01-24T14:08:34Z")
**Modnote** : Do not junior mod. If you don’t think a post is appropriate, please flag it and use the _Something Else_ Option to explain what you think is wrong. _This is just a guidance, not a warning. Nothing on your permanent record._ * * * Additionally, this is your Op, be prepared to provide some cites that currently a non-meat diet can be achieved for cats that is healthy for them. That is the accepted fact, so you need to provide the burden of proof that it is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Crane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crane/32/3495_2.png) [@Crane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crane)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/37 "2021-01-24T14:17:08Z")
Hmmmm…_‘Do Droseras Dream of Vegan Cat Food?’_ sounds like something by Phillip Dick. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/38 "2021-01-24T15:24:36Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Statistics would suggest you’re right; as a group, plants have been solely on the receiving end of animal violence since Day 1. Venus flytraps and such notwithstanding. And boy are they nursing a grudge! They outnumber us both as to number of species and number of individuals by a ridiculous ratio. It’s gonna be a bloodbath, not a sap-bath by the time it’s over. [And that was 20th Century Fox](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Happening_(2008_film))! ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/39 "2021-01-24T15:30:22Z")
Is is true what they say, that a cat will kill you first (e.g. by ambushing you and biting the back of your neck) before chowing down, unlike a pack of wolves? ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/40 "2021-01-24T15:36:41Z")
> [@Which is more insulting: To be killed by wildlife or weather?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/which-is-more-insulting-to-be-killed-by-wildlife-or-weather/537943/1): > > I think if I was to find myself being eaten by a shark, thrashed by a tornado, or hit by a meteor, my main reaction would be one of insult. How dare it! The sheer effrontery of it all. Interestingly enough, that was precisely the reaction of one researcher who found himself stalked by a tiger. His immediate reaction was, how dare it! Doesn’t it realize who I am? On second thought he realized the cat understood exactly what he was. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/41 "2021-01-24T15:47:35Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Is is true what they say, that a cat will kill you first (e.g. by ambushing you and biting the back of your neck) before chowing down, unlike a pack of wolves? Yes. Cats are very fast but have little endurance. So they typically go for a quick kill, either by breaking the neck or grabbing the throat. Dogs, like people, have a lot of endurance, and may attempt to wound prey, attacking the legs or belly. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340.md?page=3)