# Carnivorism: what? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 24, 2021, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340 "2021-01-24T03:24:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/62 "2021-01-24T18:25:25Z")
Excellent point of clarification. On another note, shouldn’t we all decide to be plants? ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/63 "2021-01-24T18:27:44Z")
> [@susan](#): > > Excellent point of clarification. On another note, shouldn’t we all decide to be plants? - Would that make it wrong to wear a fir coat? ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/64 "2021-01-24T18:29:50Z")
Leaf me alone! ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/65 "2021-01-24T18:30:16Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > And yet you skipped the [**obligatory link**](https://what-if.xkcd.com/4/). I’ve done the needful here for those non-cognoscenti in our midst. I prefer to leave a crumb behind to see if anyone picks it up. (Nobody picked up [this one](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/found-space-object-proves-we-are-not-alone-nothing-is-proven/931237/34)!) ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/66 "2021-01-24T18:32:54Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > “Why do carnivores exist if animals could just agree not to be carnivores?” has the same answer as “why do bank robbers exist if we could just all agree not to rob banks?” More like “why do bank robbers exist if we could just all agree to be exotherms, therefore needing less food, heating, and therefore money?” ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/67 "2021-01-24T18:59:21Z")
I’d just like to say that I hope in future OP _does_ get the opportunity to elope. Everyone deserves happiness. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/68 "2021-01-24T19:20:34Z")
Maybe it would be useful to address the steps of the OP part by part? > [@cantelope](#): > > Animals can be vegetarian, since the microbiome will adjust, and be handed down. Whether or not all animals can be vegetarian is addressed well already, and even to the degree that many can, what vegetables they can digest are limited. The pebble of truth though - within not clearly determined species specific limits gut microbiomes do adjust to different diets over time and are, to some degree passed down mainly from mother to child. > [@](#): > > Many animals also like to play. During play they learn about pain, that it hurts and is to be avoided. An animal does not have to learn that pain hurts. That’s tautological. Avoiding pain unless the payoff clearly is expected to offset it is also not learned but innate. > [@](#): > > why do animals subject themselves to the risk of being eaten alive, versus avoiding confrontation by being vegetarians? As pointed out, being a vegetarian/prey does not avoid confrontation; it merely defines which side of the confrontation you are more likely to be on. Pretty sure that herbivores in general die more frequently as the result of confrontations (in which they are prey) than do carnivores and omnivores. But then again I am not so sure. Lots of confrontations are intra-specific, over territory and mating access. Any input from our animal experts on whether or not those battles that may result in death are more common for one or the other group? > [@](#): > > … It’s hard to say what would have become of the dinosaurs. Perhaps in time they become vegetarian humanoids. In general the massive saurian herbivores had very tiny brains. Velociraptors on the other hand were relatively large brained. It does raise an interesting question - how many of the smarter species are herbivores? And there are a few anyway. Many apes are at least primarily herbivorous. Elephants. Most of our primate ancestors were primarily vegetarian. So why DID humans start eating so much meat? > **[How Humans Became Meat Eaters](https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/02/when-humans-became-meateaters/463305/)** > > Our earliest ancestors subsisted on plants, seeds, and nuts. What spurred them to change their diets so dramatically? > [@](#): > > The answer, or at least a part of it, may lie in a change of climate approximately 2.5 million years ago. As the rains became less abundant, so did the fruits, leaves, and flowers that our ancestors relied on. Much of the rain forest turned into sparsely wooded grasslands, with few high-quality plants to eat but with more and more grazing animals. During the long, dry spell from January through April, our ancestors would have had problems getting enough food, and to find their usual fare, they would have had to expend more time and calories. Early _hominins_ were at an evolutionary crossroads. Some, like the _australopiths_ , chose to eat large quantities of lower-quality plants; others, like early _Homo_ , went for meat. The australopiths ended up extinct, but early _Homo_ survived to evolve into modern humans. . . > [@](#): > > This suggests that carnivorism is nothing more than a cultural phenomenon, a habit Okay here it does not follow. A discussion about what counts as “culture” and which animals have it to what levels could be interesting, but clearly diets primarily herbivorous, carnivorous, or omnivorous , preceded “culture”. And culture is itself not a conscious choice that individuals make. It exists to no small degree of learned behaviors that are passed on because the groups that practice those behaviors thrived better than those around them that did not practice those learned behaviors. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/69 "2021-01-24T19:30:13Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > No, they can’t. If you feed a cat a vegetarian diet, it will adapt to those circumstances by dying. There used to be a show on Animal Planet called Animal Cops where the Humane Society and local police teamed up to deal with animals in horrible situations. There was one show with a lady who was a vegetarian and she didn’t seem totally with it, but she was feeding her cats a vegetarian diet. They were all blind, ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/70 "2021-01-24T19:42:20Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But then again I am not so sure. Lots of confrontations are intra-specific, over territory and mating access. Any input from our animal experts on whether or not those battles that may result in death are more common for one or the other group? Offhand, I would say carnivores, particularly large ones, are far more likely to kill one another in territorial or mating confrontations, simply because they are designed to be killing machines. Herbivores usually fight among themselves with horns or antlers. While it is possible to gore an opponent, the fights are usually ritualized to strike horns against one another without doing lethal damage. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/71 "2021-01-24T20:19:47Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Most of our primate ancestors were primarily vegetarian. So why DID humans start eating so much meat? But let’s not lose sight of the fact that “primarily” need not, and in this case does not, mean “exclusively.” As the article notes, even going back to our common ancestry with other existing great apes species, we come from a line of omnivores. It’s not a coincidence that Chimps, too, enjoy meat from time to time. So the article is a bit click-baitey in the regard. More so than I’m used to for _The Atlantic_. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/72 "2021-01-24T20:39:12Z")
Yet, one could argue that the very fact that carnivores kill each other so much more easily makes the development of ritualized displays more important. The best I can find so far myself is [this bit](https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/territoriality-and-aggression-13240908/) applying game theory to predicting the development of non-injurious fighting displays. An individual that can easily die in a fight for resource that can effectively signal quitting when it is clear that the odds of survival are poor enough to not offset the value of the resource, will be selected for. But then I see [this about lions](https://www.livescience.com/41572-male-lion-survival.html) and think you must be right! > [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > As the article notes, even going back to our common ancestry with other existing great apes species, we come from a line of omnivores Well it also notes that even herbivores are not always strictly so. > [@](#): > > Even dedicated herbivores such as deer or cows will sometimes try meat if they chance upon it. There are records of cows devouring live chicks and munching dead rabbits, of deer eating birds, and of the duiker, a tiny African antelope, hunting frogs. (If you want to see a few of these carnivorous herbivores caught on camera, check out YouTube.) So it comes hardly as a surprise that our ancestors, who might have already been supplementing their diets with the meat of an occasional small monkey, saw the new abundance of savanna grazers as a way to get a few additional calories. The _hominins_ were already omnivorous and opportunistic. If something was edible and it was there, they ate it. By 2.6 million years ago, there was a lot of meat around. Just as _Purgatorius_ took advantage of the climate change and a new wealth of fruits, their descendants, early _Homo_ , successfully adapted their diets to the changes in their environment. But this time, it meant going after meat. Speaking as someone who just enjoyed a wonderful half slab of ribs last night with no guilt pangs, I do appreciate the significance of climate change as a driver - to meat as a food choice in those ancient days, and now the impact of our eating so much of as a contributing factor _to_ climate change … there is some sick poetry there. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/73 "2021-01-24T21:14:42Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I’d just like to say that I hope in future OP _does_ get the opportunity to elope. Everyone deserves happiness. I see what you did there. 🙂 That deserves a major golf clap: discreet but heartfelt. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/74 "2021-01-24T22:19:52Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > Yet, one could argue that the very fact that carnivores kill each other so much more easily makes the development of ritualized displays more important. The best I can find so far myself is [this bit](https://www.nature.com/scitable/knowledge/library/territoriality-and-aggression-13240908/) applying game theory to predicting the development of non-injurious fighting displays. An individual that can easily die in a fight for resource that can effectively signal quitting when it is clear that the odds of survival are poor enough to not offset the value of the resource, will be selected for. Seems to be similar to or a subset of something known as [signalling theory](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Signalling_theory), which is not just limited to interactions between predators, and can include (as the foremost example of a “stotting” springbok indicates) signaling of a sort between predators and potential prey. Not that they necessarily _know_ what they are doing. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/75 "2021-01-24T22:28:46Z")
Accepting the OP’s premise for the sake of argument, how would this work out for fish? Let’s say fish stopped eating other fish (or more broadly sea animals stopped eating other sea animals). Is there enough plant life in the oceans to support the dietary needs of all of the animals on a sustainable basis? Or would the animals eat all the plants and then starve to death? And don’t bother making the obvious joke. My username is based on the Winsor McCay character. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/76 "2021-01-24T22:38:15Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Accepting the OP’s premise for the sake of argument, how would this work out for fish? Let’s say fish stopped eating other fish (or more broadly sea animals stopped eating other sea animals). Is there enough plant life in the oceans to support the dietary needs of all of the animals on a sustainable basis? Or would the animals eat all the plants and then starve to death?. Unlike on land, where most plants are relatively large organisms, except in near coastal environments most of the photosynthetic organisms are microscopic algae or cyanobacteria. These are mostly eaten by very small zooplankton, although some larger organisms can harvest them. So there’s plenty of plant life, but the majority of animals couldn’t consume it. They have to eat smaller organisms that eat it. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2021, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/77 "2021-01-24T23:49:20Z")
If **cantelope** hasn’t already fled after all this flogging, I’d like to say Welcome To The Straight Dope Message Board! Boy, this brings back memories! I made my first post a long time ago. The subject was Gatorade. I made a handful of factual mistakes, but my biggest mistake was not looking stuff up before posting it, so I’d have some references to **cite.** Some of the regulars boxed my ears and cuffed me around a bit, but I didn’t give up. I admitted my mistakes, and I clarified my solid points. Over time, I learned to not (usually) assert things I wasn’t sure of. I also learned to be vigorously skeptical in the world outside the SDMB. I learned to say, “Wait, how do you know that to be true?” You can be a vegetarian here and get along with folks, if you’re not a jerk about it. Aw, crud, I’m rattling on like I think I’m wise or something. Sorry. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2021, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/78 "2021-01-25T01:32:50Z")
There is some suspicion all is not as it seems with our newbie OP. I’ll not say more in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/79 "2021-01-26T22:54:49Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > …as a group, plants have been solely on the receiving end of animal violence since Day 1. Venus flytraps and such notwithstanding. And boy are they nursing a grudge! They outnumber us both as to number of species and number of individuals by a ridiculous ratio. It’s gonna be a bloodbath, not a sap-bath by the time it’s over. [![](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/ASo7dklOTP0/hqdefault.jpg "Genesis ~ The Return Of The Giant Hogweed") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASo7dklOTP0&t=0h34s) ---
**Author:** ![jayrey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/47e85d/32.png) [@jayrey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayrey)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2021, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/80 "2021-01-26T23:48:32Z")
Thanks, @Darren_Garrison. That was great! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2021, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340/81 "2021-01-27T00:10:48Z")
My cats are second-hand vegetarians. They only eat animals that don’t eat meat. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carnivorism-what/931340.md?page=5)