# Carrier To Keep Jobs In US **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 30, 2016, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431 "2016-11-30T01:37:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/121 "2016-12-03T03:52:24Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > So now companies know that you can tax breaks by threatening to export jobs. This is hardly news. Every time s company threatens to leave a location, the state, and usually the employees if there is a union, make some counter-offer. And other states and countries rush in to offer a better deal. We all keep talking about the corrupting influence of money on politicians, as if most of them put directly in their pocket (I know dumb ones do, the the vast majority don't). But pales in comparison to the real currency of politics-jobs. Companies are the only ones with that currency and that gives them great power. ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/122 "2016-12-03T04:15:58Z")
> [@OriginalGangster](#): > > 1000 workers. At $10-$15 per hour, we can assume they make 20 to 30k per year. > > So, Drumpfft pays the CEO of Carrier probably something close to 3 million up front plus a massive tax break. > > And the crowd goes wild. The US workers get $25-$30/hour. The Mexico workers get $11/ **DAY**. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/123 "2016-12-03T05:41:09Z")
Sarah Palin actually addresses this pretty well: [Sarah Palin Calls Out Trump's Carrier Deal, Warns Against 'Crony Capitalism'](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sarah-palin-calls-out-trump-s-carrier-deal-warns-against-n691426) ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/124 "2016-12-03T05:48:16Z")
> [@China\_Guy](#): > > Sarah Palin actually addresses this pretty well: [Sarah Palin Calls Out Trump's Carrier Deal, Warns Against 'Crony Capitalism'](http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/sarah-palin-calls-out-trump-s-carrier-deal-warns-against-n691426) WTG, Sarah. There went her Cabinet post. ---
**Author:** ![Rick\_Kitchen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rick_kitchen/32/522_2.png) [@Rick\_Kitchen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick_Kitchen)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/125 "2016-12-03T05:52:34Z")
Trump owns stock in Carrier’s parent company. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/126 "2016-12-03T05:56:26Z")
Layman question about tax breaks: Does Washington State actually write up a law into its legal code, saying, “All companies not named Boeing shall have to pay a corporate tax of \_\_\_\_\_%, but Boeing shall be exempt?” How does that not violate some equal-treatment law/constitution? ---
**Author:** ![ThelmaLou](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thelmalou/32/390_2.png) [@ThelmaLou](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ThelmaLou)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/127 "2016-12-03T06:05:59Z")
[Why Trump gets more hype out of 1,000 jobs than Obama does out of 16 million](http://wapo.st/2gQ7gz3) My bold. > [@](#): > > Cheering crowds greeted Trump during his victory lap through the Rust Belt this week following the announcement that the nation’s new negotiator-in-chief had struck a deal with heating and air conditioner manufacturer Carrier to keep a factory in Indiana from moving to Mexico. The agreement affected roughly 1,000 jobs and provided Trump the opportunity to deliver on a powerful campaign promise even before taking office. > > The plant is just a sliver compared with the nearly \*\*16million new jobs generated under Obama \*\*as he guided the country out of the worst economic crisis since the Depression. But Obama’s success came in fits and starts, illustrated by graphs and pie charts, driven by the philosophy that strengthening the economy required comprehensive new policies. > … > > Trump will enter the Oval Office with a significant advantage over his predecessor. New government data released Friday showed that **the national unemployment rate dropped to 4.6 percent last month, the lowest level since President George W. Bush sat in the White House in 2007**. The economy added 178,000 jobs, extending the longest streak of monthly job growth on record. > > More-stubborn indicators of the economy’s health, such as wage growth, have finally begun to pick up. Discouraged workers are returning to the labor force. And many of the jobs created over the past two years have been in higher-paying industries. > > “It is night and day between the economy we inherited and the one we are passing off,” Deputy Labor Secretary Chris Lu said in an interview… No doubt Trump will take credit for the current low unemployment rate. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/128 "2016-12-03T08:53:52Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > The discussion has talked about nothing but bottom-line numbers, tax breaks and workforce costs. It was not superfluous to point out that Carrier gets many other, somewhat indirect benefits from allowing themselves to be talked into keeping a fraction of the jobs in the 'Murrican Heartland. > > You should understand this, since you are going to great lengths to wave their PR banner for them in the matter. Never claimed that the optics of the deal are unimportant. But they were referred to as not being part of the economic calculation when they most certainly are. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/129 "2016-12-03T08:57:28Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > Just for starters, that was never the choice. Of those 1100, [300 jobs were never slated to go to Mexico](https://gma.yahoo.com/300-carrier-jobs-trump-touts-indiana-were-never-162110679--abc-news-topstories.html) in the first place. Trump is taking credit for, and you are giving Trump credit for, “saving” jobs that were never in danger. > > How many other details about this deal have yet to be revealed? Are you absolutely sure you know the full final tally? (I will remind you again that the $7 million was first revealed by “unnamed sources close to the deal”–the initial announcement from Carrier didn’t mention anything about tax incentives.) If you can’t see or won’t admit the difference between receiving taxes and not paying out benefits vs not receiving taxes and paying out benefits, that’s on you. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/130 "2016-12-03T09:05:28Z")
> [@ThelmaLou](#): > > [Why Trump gets more hype out of 1,000 jobs than Obama does out of 16 million](http://wapo.st/2gQ7gz3) > > My bold. > > No doubt Trump will take credit for the current low unemployment rate. Because comparing a president at the end of his second term and a guy who’s not been sworn in yet is totally apples to apples. But thanks for the link to the article. It’s a long format version of the partisan acrobatics displayed in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/131 "2016-12-03T17:31:39Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > If you can’t see or won’t admit the difference between receiving taxes and not paying out benefits vs not receiving taxes and paying out benefits, that’s on you. Essentially, what this carrier deal is, is that the employees will be paying their taxes, but they will be paying much of their taxes to the company, rather than the state govt. This makes their company more competitive, makes all its competition disadvantaged, and costs the taxpayers the money going into carrier’s pockets rather than state coffers. Corporate welfare at its finest, CEO’s getting rich on the taxpayers dime. Now, I run a business. In the last 3 years, I have added 13 jobs to the economy. I plan on adding more next year. How many? I don’t know, but with my growth, I am on track for 5 or more. Why am I competing against businesses that threaten to move their production, still do move most of their production, and get massive tax breaks for it? Why don’t I get to get a " refund a “minority portion” of employee state tax withholdings"? I am adding jobs to the economy, like many small businesses like mine, while most of the large corps are stagnant or shrinking in their workforce, and being rewarded for it. If you want to save and create jobs, and also actually improve the economy, invest in small businesses, not in large corporations. Give us some tax incentives and subsidized/guaranteed loans, give us a discount on our payroll taxes. There are millions of businesses like mine. Create an incentive or tax break that allows us to hire one more employee each, and you have done orders of magnitude more for employment and the economy than this carrier deal. Getting one “free” (or at least discounted) employee now would make my next hires even sooner. I plan on growing. I plan on increasing my workforce. Giving me (and other businesses like mine) a tax incentive not only does economic good now, but it also contributes to future growth. Keeping the carrier jobs can at best be described as staunching the hemorrhage. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/132 "2016-12-03T18:08:27Z")
But that doesn’t have the same large all at once political impact of Saving 800 Carrier jobs. (Yes I’m cynical. ) ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2016, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/133 "2016-12-04T18:49:17Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > If you can’t see or won’t admit the difference between receiving taxes and not paying out benefits vs not receiving taxes and paying out benefits, that’s on you. In this case, the state of Indiana is still going to be paying unemployment benefits to the former employees whose jobs did go to Mexico. However, at least part of the tax benefits Carrier will be getting credits on will be payroll taxes–do you know what payroll taxes fund? Among other things, they fund unemployment benefits. That means that with this deal, the state of Indiana will not be receiving some taxes otherwise due into the unemployment fund, and will be paying benefits out of that fund to ex-Carrier employees. Isn’t “paying but not receiving” the situation you think is so bad? ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/134 "2016-12-05T04:18:14Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Only in the sense of “We only need to amputate one of your legs, not both.” > > Maybe it’d be nice if Indiana got to keep both legs? No doubt. But pretending losing one leg is no different than losing both, to borrow your analogy, is partisan nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/135 "2016-12-05T04:30:10Z")
> [@slash2k](#): > > In this case, the state of Indiana is still going to be paying unemployment benefits to the former employees whose jobs did go to Mexico. However, at least part of the tax benefits Carrier will be getting credits on will be payroll taxes–do you know what payroll taxes fund? Among other things, they fund unemployment benefits. Instead of paying X number of laid off workers unemployment, they’ll be paying X -1100 laid off workers unemployment. By staying in the state Carrier will be paying tax, whereas they would pay no tax if they completely moved to Mexico. This isn’t hard, and I refuse to believe you’re really too obtuse to see the difference. ---
**Author:** ![Waymore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Waymore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waymore)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/136 "2016-12-05T04:31:43Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > Essentially, what this carrier deal is, is that the employees will be paying their taxes, but they will be paying much of their taxes to the company, rather than the state govt. What’s your justification for this statement? ---
**Author:** ![slash2k](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@slash2k](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slash2k)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/137 "2016-12-05T16:36:10Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Instead of paying X number of laid off workers unemployment, they’ll be paying X -1100 laid off workers unemployment. By staying in the state Carrier will be paying tax, whereas they would pay no tax if they completely moved to Mexico. > > This isn’t hard, and I refuse to believe you’re really too obtuse to see the difference. And I have difficulty believing you don’t understand that (1) Carrier was never going to “completely” move to Mexico in the first place, and (2) paying fewer unemployment benefits, while having less money to pay the unemployment benefits still due, isn’t necessarily a win. ---
**Author:** ![dofe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7ba0ec/32.png) [@dofe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dofe)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/138 "2016-12-05T17:11:54Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Layman question about tax breaks: Does Washington State actually write up a law into its legal code, saying, “All companies not named Boeing shall have to pay a corporate tax of \_\_\_\_\_%, but Boeing shall be exempt?” How does that not violate some equal-treatment law/constitution? The pertinent Washington State law is [RCW 82.32.850](http://apps.leg.wa.gov/rcw/default.aspx?cite=82.32.850), which doesn’t specifically name Boeing but instead applies to companies that fall under the definition of “significant commercial airplane manufacturing.” This does not violate the equal protection clause\* in the same way that the Child Tax Credit does not violate the equal protection even though two individuals (one childless and one a parent) are treated differently. That is to say, the WA state tax statute applies not just to Boeing, but any company that falls under the definition provided in the statute. \*there is some question on whether the equal protection clause even applies to tax laws at the state level, as the SCOTUS has not been entirely consistent on this issue. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/139 "2016-12-05T17:52:34Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > Instead of paying X number of laid off workers unemployment, they’ll be paying X -1100 laid off workers unemployment. Right away you’re demonstrating an unwillingness to think of a lot of marginal issues. 1. Obviously, had X works been laid off, they would not all have remained unemployed. Most would have found other jobs; the economy in Indiana is pretty good, and most people who work for a legit outfit like Carrier will have solid resumes and skills. 2. As k9bfriender alludes to, paying Carrier to keep jobs in the USA means companies that AREN’T being paid by the government to create jobs are, basically, facing direct competition from the United States government. Carrier does have competitors and they’re now facing an unfairly advantaged competitor. Every other manufacturer who isn’t getting government dough is now, quite rightly, pissed off and wondering where their money is. This isn’t a new problem, of course. It’s not even big on the scale of such problems. Cities and states have been making dumber deals than this to attract professional sports franchises since before I was born, spending hundred of millions on football stadiums to “create jobs” at rates where they’d be better off dropping the money out of helicopters over the city. But if the new President doesn’t get the concept of moral hazard and opportunity cost and comparative advantage and a lot of other really basic economics concepts, it’s going to be a problem that might get a lot worse. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2016, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431/140 "2016-12-05T18:42:25Z")
> [@Waymore](#): > > What’s your justification for this statement? Your own cite, and math. The are keeping 5 million in tax withholding from their employees state taxes over 10 years. For 1000 employees, that’s 500 a person a year. Indiana state income tax is 3.3%. If an employee makes $50k, then their tax is $1650. In this deal, carrier is keeping 500 of that, or nearly a third. Throw in unemployment and worker’s comp (which shouldn’t be part of the deal, but everything’s on the bargaining table now), and you’ll get maybe 6, let’s be generous and call it 7% total withholding for the state, which still means that carrier is keeping nearly 20% of the revenue that is supposed to be going to the state. Now, obviously the moral hazard here is that if everyone starts threatening to move, then everyone will be demanding a 20% kickback on their state tax withholding. I know I’d love to keep 20% of the payroll taxes that are due to the state. I know that I’d be pissed if one of my competitors got that deal, and I didn’t. In fact, giving that kind of government subsidy to another corporation that comes out of MY taxes is going to make me more likely to think about relocating to another place… you know, unless I can get the same kind of deal. This is only talking about the 5 million “EDGE” deal part, there is another 2 million in the released 7 mill deal, plus whatever other promises have been made in regards to their parent company. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carrier-to-keep-jobs-in-us/773431.md?page=8)