# Carthage must be destroyed! **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 15, 2000, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019 "2000-10-15T19:07:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/1 "2000-10-15T19:07:28Z")
Actually not, but a friend of mine and I have been trying to remember what this is in Latin. It is a phrase written by either Scipio Africanus or one of the Caesars and we can’t remember it to save our lives. Help! Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/2 "2000-10-15T19:12:24Z")
The oft-repeated words of CATO the Elder were, _"Delenda est Carthago._ ---
**Author:** ![wevets](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9a140/32.png) [@wevets](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wevets)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/3 "2000-10-15T20:05:01Z")
I always heard it: _Carthago delenda est_. Anyone remember which is the correct order? I’m sure the words are correct. ---
**Author:** ![Ringo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/779978/32.png) [@Ringo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ringo)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/4 "2000-10-15T20:23:26Z")
As it’s been 33 years since I last studied Latin, I’ll have to defer to [someone on the net who claims to know](http://hill.lut.ac.uk/lists/g10/1999/02/0146.html). I also found it at [Thesaurus.com](http://www.thesaurus.com/thesaurus/roget/I/162.html) (bottom of the page). ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/5 "2000-10-15T20:23:43Z")
I’ve always heard the second way. ---
**Author:** ![Cogitoergosum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Cogitoergosum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cogitoergosum)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/6 "2000-10-15T20:24:44Z")
My latin teacher said it was Karthago delenda est. But, IIRC, in Websters dictionary, under gerundive, it’s listed as “Delenda est Karthago.” ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2000, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/7 "2000-10-15T20:57:10Z")
OP answered. Thanks, y’all. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/8 "2000-10-16T01:02:21Z")
I thought that the word order in Latin didn’t matter, because the declensions and conjugations make the sense of the passage clear? Unlike English, which has lost most of its inflections, so word order is important for the meaning? For example, I’ve seen “jacta alea est” and “alea est jacta.” ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/9 "2000-10-16T02:44:21Z")
Well, I think you ALL got it wrong. The way I remember it is that Cato ended his speeches with “Cetero censeo Carthago esse delendam” (I) Also think Cartago should be destroyed. When Scipio Africanus destroyed it, he said “Carthago delenda est” Carthago has been destroyed. What happens is that quotes are simplified and distorted to the point the author couldn’t recognize them I found [url=“[http://www.bulldogbulletin.com/page19.htm](http://www.bulldogbulletin.com/page19.htm)”]this page: I though of the immortal Cato the Elder (or Cato the Censor) who constantly warned the Roman Senate about Carthage. Cato ended every speech in the Senate with Ceterum censeo Carthago esse delendam which roughly translates as “I am of the opinion that Carthage must be destroyed.” This well-known line was the inspiration for Scipio Africanus’ even more famous message to the Senate upon his conquest of Carthage: Carthago delendum est or “Carthage is destroyed.” ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/10 "2000-10-16T02:48:19Z")
I also think I should be more careful in the future. While our benign moderator comes along to fix that slash, [here](http://www.bulldogbulletin.com/page19.htm) is the link. ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/11 "2000-10-16T02:58:19Z")
> [@](#): > > When Scipio Africanus destroyed it, he said “Carthago delenda est” Carthago has been destroyed. Well, if he did his grammar was a bit shaky. “Delenda” is a _future_ passive participle, which generally carries a sense of obligation; “Carthago delenda est” means Carthage is to be or ought to be destroyed in the future. Scipio should have used the _perfect_ passive participle and said, “Carthago _deleta_ est.” ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/12 "2000-10-16T05:17:28Z")
Fretful, that was _me_ talking, I took two years of latin about 100 years ago and that is about all I remember so it is probably messed up. I am sure Cato spoke better latin and got his tenses and declensions right. But you get the gist of what I am trying to say. Probably cato did not use the exact same words every time and this is more legend than anything else ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/13 "2000-10-16T05:36:49Z")
Just to weigh in, my old _Educational Book of Essential Knowledge_ (copyright 1964) has it listed under “Foreign Words and Phrases” as _Delenda est Carthago_. It also has “laser”, “centrifuge” and “spacewalk” listed under “New Words to this Edition”. ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2000, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/14 "2000-10-16T06:35:54Z")
What **sailor** said is close to the version I heard: _Ceterum censeo Carthaginem delendam esse._ [“As for the rest, I think that Carthage ought to be destroyed.”] This is the version I remember from reading a biography of Harry S Truman, who used to correct people who believed the quotation was supposed to be “Carthago delendam esse.” This version is also found at [http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/cato.html](http://www.csun.edu/~hcfll004/cato.html) ---
**Author:** ![bibliophage](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bibliophage/32/7615_2.png) [@bibliophage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bibliophage)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2000, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/15 "2000-10-17T00:22:11Z")
I misremembered the Truman biography slightly. It is **Plain Speaking** by Merle Miller. The appropriate part is an interview with Truman’s old Latin teacher. > [@](#): > > … he was having a discussion with Chief Justice Vinson … and Chief Justice Vinson quoted Marcus Porcius Cato about that Carthage must be destroyed. Except he said it in Latin. I forget how he said it, but I remember Harry said, “That’s the idea, but you didn’t say it right. You should have said, **'Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendum.** ’” And Harry was right, of course. It seems to me that the word should be **delendam** , since Carthago is feminine. That’s the version at [http://www-pp.hogia.net/alexander.backlund/cato.html](http://www-pp.hogia.net/alexander.backlund/cato.html) : \*\*Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam. \*\* ---
**Author:** ![Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/eada6e/32.png) [@Chance\_the\_Gardener](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chance_the_Gardener)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2000, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/16 "2000-10-17T03:03:19Z")
According to the 1995 edition of _Le petit LaRousse_, these words were made famous by Cato the Elder, who ended each of his speeches with _Delenda Carthago_. This phrase has been often employed among scholars to evoke an obsession. The destruction of Carthage was apparently an obsession of Cato the Elder’s. Well, now that it’s been destroyed for more than two thousand years, I guess it’s time to reflect that you might want to be careful what you wish for. ---
**Author:** ![Celyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9dc877/32.png) [@Celyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Celyn)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2000, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/17 "2000-10-17T05:39:08Z")
Thus far, no-one seems to have used the most obvious intellectual source, it being, of course, the words of Asterix (and Oblelix). Strangely, ha! ha! it helps not at all. “Carthago delenda est” or “Delenda est Carthago!” I think that explains a lot about my eduation, of lack thereof. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2000, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/carthage-must-be-destroyed/37019/18 "2000-10-17T10:58:22Z")
I’m too worried about the sky falling on my head to contribute anything further.