# Casablanca...I finally saw it. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 18, 2003, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504 "2003-01-18T18:39:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/21 "2003-01-22T16:13:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by plnnr \* > \*\*You’re underestimating Ilsa. \*\* Well, yeah. I just can’t explain it that well early in the morning. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/22 "2003-01-22T17:41:54Z")
**carnivorousplant** is right on the money. Ilsa thought her husband Victor was dead when she met Rick in Paris. She fell in love with him not as a fling, but as a serious romance. As we learn during later exposition, the reason Ilsa left Rick high and dry at the train station (OK, high and WET, actually), was that she had just received word that Victor was alive, and needed her help immediately. Under the circumstances, I can certainly sympathize with her decision to go to him, even though it meant abandoning Rick. Also remembering that this was wartime, and that Rick probably didn’t have a web page and e-mail address in Casablanca, it’s certainly believable that she couldn’t track him down later, when things were calm. When she does finally see him again, in the company of her husband, it’s equally understandable that she doesn’t immediately come clean. Not only would it be incredibly inappropriate under what might pass for normal circumstances, but Rick is now the man that holds the letters of transit. Should she have told Victor of her affair, so that he, at least, knew? Probably, but again I can see a reasonable person taking the position that since she wasn’t at fault - she wasn’t cheating, after all; she thought he was dead - that telling him would serve no good purpose at all. I don’t endorse the position, but I can see reasonable people disagreeing. So now… what should Ilsa have done that she didn’t do? She does come clean with Rick. And she obviously still has feelings for him, feelings which she had successfully buried when he was far away and unreachable. She starts to come clean with Victor, but he stops her, saying that no one was at fault and he blames no one. I agree her, “I can’t think anymore - you decide for both of us…” line makes her seem a bit weak. But she has every right to be confused. Victor’s work is something she believes very strongly in. If she stays with Rick, Victor, at least, can continue the important work. If she goes with Victor, it might be a Pyrrhic victory for the couple; Rick may be disinclined to hand over the letters of transit. In the end, I choose to take her line not as a total surrender of her responsibility, but as a way to ask the man she fell in love with in Paris to make the right choice - not just for her, but for everyone. And her faith in Rick is not misplaced. He is redeemed by the chance to make that choice. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/23 "2003-01-22T17:53:18Z")
> [@](#): > > Heather Graham had, what? 10 minutes of screen time at the most? Meanwhile Ingrid and Humphrey had over an hour and a half to convince us of a relationship and I didn’t buy it. Well, I thought Graham was thoroughly unconvincing in the movie (no doubt due to her inability to act) and the meet-cute is a glib easy-out to Favreau’s situation. Ilsa gets a bad rap because of the not-very-progressive line, “You’ll have to do the thinking for both of us.” However, it’s established earlier that she has done nothing but do the thinking for herself for years with Victor, often completely going against his wishes by staying in harm’s way, instead of fleeing to safety, to support him in his effort. Evading the Nazis at every turn is hard enough; meeting her 2nd great Love-of-Her-Life is one pressure too many. She doesn’t say that line because she _can’t_ think for herself; she says it because she’s tired of the need to do so, and she doesn’t trust her own feelings on the matter (since it’s clear she would stay with Rick). > [@](#): > > And, Rick and his black piano player (the late Dooley Wilson) appeard to have been good friends-something I didn’t think was possible for a black and a white man in the 1940’s. My biggest problem with the movie is how Rick ditches loyal Sam, who certainly gets short shrift in tying up the loose plot ends. Still, the relationship is touching. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/24 "2003-01-22T18:01:07Z")
We don’t know that Rick ditches Sam. For all we know, we goes back to get Sam before departing. He’s not in any immediate danger, after all - although Strasser has been shot, it seems the usual suspects will be questioned. ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/25 "2003-01-22T18:04:42Z")
I don’t think Rick ditches Sam, \*\* ArchiveGuy\*\*. He leaves Sam set up in what’s probably the safest place for him–under the protection of Casablanca’s underworld boss. Rick’s about to go off and do some incredibly dangerous stuff. He can make that decision for himself, but not for Sam. I think he does right by Sam. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/26 "2003-01-22T18:11:45Z")
Remember when Signor Ferrari offers to double Sam’s pay, and Sam refuses to go with him? I suspect Sam will want to stay with Rick, regardless – but he does have a guaranteed contract with Ferrari, and so he’s in the driver’s seat as far as making the choice about what to do. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/27 "2003-01-22T18:24:37Z")
**Bricker** , Rick obviously has no intention of taking Sam with him, given that he sets Sam up with Ferrari by selling Rick’s. It’s nice, of course, that he makes sure he’s treated fairly, but he still doesn’t even consult with Sam about it. And **vibotronica** , I did forget about the mention of the Free French garrison, so I can see your point about not involving Sam in any further political antics. Still, the movie could’ve used some sort of wrap-up scene with him. He simply seems to vanish from the movie after Rick’s is closed. Reminds me of Birdie (Thelma Ritter) in _All About Eve_–at a certain point, what you thought was a critical counterpoint character disappers suddenly, never to be heard from again. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/28 "2003-01-22T18:44:54Z")
What I can’t stand is how Sam always obsequiously calls Humphrey “Mr. Rick” ---
**Author:** ![av8rmike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/edb3f5/32.png) [@av8rmike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/av8rmike)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/29 "2003-01-22T19:01:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Zebra \* > \*\*Finally the Nazis get rowdy in his bar (the American Cafe) he puts his foot down, tells the band to play the French National Anthem and starts to kick Nazi butt. \*\* [pedant] It was Victor Laszlo that asked the band to play _La Marseilleise_, not Rick. They came both came out of the latter’s office to find the Germans singing patriotic songs and Laszlo wanted to stir up the crowd against them. With this act as example of Laszlo’s power to incite people, Major Strasser orders Renault to close the cafe. [/pedant] ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/30 "2003-01-22T19:03:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ludovic \* > \*\*calls Humphrey “Mr. Rick” \*\* Something between “Mr. Blaine” and “Rick, ol’ Pal of Mine”. You can’t call an elder relative or employer “Carnie”, but calling them “Mr. Plant” is too formal. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/31 "2003-01-22T19:08:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ArchiveGuy \* > \*\ ***Bricker** , Rick obviously has no intention of taking Sam with him, given that he sets Sam up with Ferrari by selling Rick’s. It’s nice, of course, that he makes sure he’s treated fairly, but he still doesn’t even consult with Sam about it. \*\* Rick’s is Rick’s to sell. He ensures that Sam has a job, but he doesn’t bind Sam to taking it. I don’t agree that he obviously has no intention of taking Sam with him. As I said, it’s not as though he’s under any intense pressure to leave Casablanca that night – indeed, where would he go? He’s just given up the transit letters to Lisbon; he can only go backwards, so to speak, or stay there. He hasn’t even packed up his belongings yet - why would he leave? There’s nothing to contradict the idea that he has every intention of giving Sam the choice about coming with him, or staying to tinkle the ivories at the Ferrari-owned bar. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/32 "2003-01-22T19:23:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ludovic \* > \*\*What I can’t stand is how Sam always obsequiously calls Humphrey “Mr. Rick” \*\* It’s a Southernism. People use it when they’re on informal terms with someone but also wish to show the other person that they have respect for them. I’ve seen young white folks refer to older African-American folks that they respect as “Ms./Mr. \.” ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/33 "2003-01-22T19:44:12Z")
> [@](#): > > or staying to tinkle the ivories at the Ferrari-owned bar. So _that’s_ why Renault’s men didn’t check the piano! > [@](#): > > he can only go backwards, so to speak, or stay there. He hasn’t even packed up his belongings yet - why would he leave? I don’t follow this sentence at all. Renault says, “It might be a good idea for you to disappear from Casablanca for awhile.” He wasn’t talking about next month; Major Strasser’s death will no doubt be investigated, and soon. I read Renault’s use of “our” as exclusive to the two of them (since 10,000 francs might not cover the expenses of 3 people). Anyway, arranging passage for Rick won’t be easy; adding another might be prohibitively difficult. I certainly don’t doubt that Rick would return to Sam to say goodbye, but we don’t see that, which would be fine except that what we _do_ see is him making the arrangements for Sam without Sam’s input (and with the assumption that he’s leaving Sam in Morocco). I guess you’re free to assume something different, but I’m not convinced. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/34 "2003-01-22T19:59:31Z")
Sure, Major Strasser’s death will be investigated - by Renault’s office. I agree Rick has to leave; I dispute that he’s walking into the fog with Renault away from Casablanca, never to return. There’s plenty of time for him to visit Sam and offer him a chance to come along before he clears out. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/35 "2003-01-22T20:37:15Z")
As they amble off into the Warner lot, I too thought they were leaving then. ---
**Author:** ![Quintas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/48db29/32.png) [@Quintas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quintas)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/36 "2003-01-22T20:43:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AuntiePam \* > **Me too, and I tend to get carried away and wonder what happened, why things have changed so much.** Hippies. Hippies made it acceptable to be a slob. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/37 "2003-01-22T20:47:21Z")
Naw, it was Miami Vice. ---
**Author:** ![CuriousCanuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@CuriousCanuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CuriousCanuck)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/38 "2003-01-22T20:53:04Z")
Just one comment: To those that mentioned that the movie was full of cliches you have to remember something. This movie was done 60 years ago so things that seem cliche now were not back then. And as far as the lines quoted in the OP as cites, well, I just have to say that those lines are the classics… the originals… The cliches of today stem from the brilliance of yesterday. ---
**Author:** ![Fish42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/4da419/32.png) [@Fish42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish42)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/39 "2003-01-22T21:01:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by av8rmike \* > \*\*[pedant] > It was Victor Laszlo that asked the band to play _La Marseilleise_, not Rick. … > [/pedant] \*\* [one-upping pedant] However, the band doesn’t actually play it until Rick nods his approval. [/one-upping pedant] ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [January 22, 2003, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504/40 "2003-01-22T21:02:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by av8rmike \* > \*\*[pedant] > It was Victor Laszlo that asked the band to play _La Marseilleise_, not Rick. They came both came out of the latter’s office to find the Germans singing patriotic songs and Laszlo wanted to stir up the crowd against them. With this act as example of Laszlo’s power to incite people, Major Strasser orders Renault to close the cafe. > [/pedant] \*\* Ummmm… go back and watch it again. Laszlo tells the band to play but the leader looks to Rick for permission. Rick nods his head and joins the war. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-i-finally-saw-it/149504.md?page=3)