# Casablanca question **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [June 27, 2010, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656 "2010-06-27T01:40:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/21 "2010-06-27T23:41:30Z")
> [@Raguleader](#): > > Could they have been playing Risk instead? Well, he was trying to occupy her territory. ---
**Author:** ![Rocketeer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rocketeer/32/4437_2.png) [@Rocketeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocketeer)\ **Post date:** [June 27, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/22 "2010-06-27T23:44:24Z")
[cough] …Hide the Salami…[cough] ---
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/23 "2010-06-28T02:35:50Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Of course they “did it”. At one point, Rick says “We’ll always have Paris and if we didn’t, we got it back last night.” or some such. Knowing that each loves the other, they can each go their own ways and live their lives. The whole movie is about nobility and sacrifice. > > So, yes, they did have sex, just off screen. I know exactly what they did and how they did it and how much they both enjoyed it, but I’ve been sworn to secrecy… _Playboy_ once published a short story titled “You Must Remember This” which went into great detail about that night. ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/24 "2010-06-28T13:03:54Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > … We’re to believe that Ilsa is a clueless ingenue caught in an impossible love triangle between two diffident men while enmeshed in a plot to acquire these vaunted “letters of transit”, signed by General De Gaulle (“…cannot be rescinded, not even questioned…”) permitting the bearers to pass unmolested. However, as we discover, the letters of transit aren’t worth the paper they’re written on when it comes to allowing Lazlo and Ilsa to leave Casablanca … It’s a common mistake for people to hear “General De Gaulle” when the it’s actually “General Weygand”. See halfway down the IMDb [goofs section](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/goofs). I vote that nothing happened. What is shown on screen is pretty much it. Rick refusing Ilsa’s ploy is a key step of his rehabilitation from self-centered observer to hero. It fits the story arc much better. Having him sleep with Ilsa just for the jollies doesn’t work. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/25 "2010-06-28T13:07:59Z")
You think Ilsa slept in Sam’s piano? No, they did it. And Yvonne was sobbing, pounding on the door. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/26 "2010-06-28T14:11:57Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > _Playboy_ once published a short story titled “You Must Remember This” which went into great detail about that night. Yes, by Robert Coover. I recently read it in this book: [Night at the Movies: Coover, Robert, Robert, Coover: 9781564781604: Amazon.com: Books](http://www.amazon.com/Night-Movies-Must-Remember-This/dp/1564781607/ref=sr_1_6?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1277734203&sr=1-6). No great shakes as literature, or even as porn, but I suppose any _Casablanca_ fan who has imagined Rick and Ilsa getting hot and heavy will want to have a look. ---
**Author:** ![bienville](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4bbf92/32.png) [@bienville](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bienville)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/27 "2010-06-28T14:39:20Z")
> [@Sigmagirl](#): > > You think Ilsa slept in Sam’s piano? No, they did it. And Yvonne was sobbing, pounding on the door. Until Ilsa said, “Why don’t you let her in? She’s got a hot body and a low self-image, perfect recipe for fun.” _bowp-chica-wah-wow_ ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/28 "2010-06-28T14:44:43Z")
Michael Walsh wrote a novel that covers the movie, and what happened before and after, called [As Time Goes By](http://www.amazon.com/As-Time-Goes-Michael-Walsh/dp/0446607452) In the end, Lazlo dies, Rcik & Ilsa marry, and on their honeymoon “the fundamental things apply” ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/29 "2010-06-28T14:53:38Z")
> [@ftg](#): > > It’s a common mistake for people to hear “General De Gaulle” when the it’s actually “General Weygand”. See halfway down the IMDb [goofs section](http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0034583/goofs). I’m not buying it. I’ve listened to that particular line dozens of times in detail, including a by-scene analysis with the volume amplified, and Ugarte is very clearly saying, “General De Gaulle”, not “Weygand”; the hard consonant “D” after “General” is distinctly different than the “weh” sound. Maxime Weygand was also in deep trouble with the Vichy regime in the latter half of 1941 and was dismissed from the position of Delegate-General to the North African colonies in November 1941, prior to the events in the film, so his signature on anything at that point would have been worthless. My film prof agreed that it was a factual error in the screenplay, and notwithstanding, that the “letters of transit” serve not only as a MacGuffin, but an ultimately pointless one. The film has some cracking dialogue, some very memorable secondary characters, and the always enjoyable Claude Rains, Sydney Greenstreet, and Peter Lorre, but the plot makes about as much sense as playing Scrabble blindfolded. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/30 "2010-06-28T15:15:08Z")
Oh, please. There is no “weh” sound in “Weygand.” It’s pronounced “Vey-gah(n).” There’s nothing even resembling a “d” sound in the way Ugarte pronounces it, the vowel sound in the first syllable is an “ay” (“de Gaulle” has a scwha sound), and it clearly ends with a French nasal sound that doesn’t exist in “de Gaulle.” One would have to be totally ignorant of the actual pronunciation of the two words in order to confuse them. As for Weygand being on the outs – this was Hollywood. They didn’t care and didn’t worry about trivia like that. The Epsteins just wanted the name of a French General, and that’s the one he picked. If this “disproves” the use of Weygand, then isn’t is even more wrong that they use “Degaulle”? It would not be unreasonable for the Epsteins to not know the current ins and outs of Vichy politics, but it’s a real stretch to think they didn’t know de Gaulle was on the other side. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/31 "2010-06-28T15:57:58Z")
> [@Annie-Xmas](#): > > Michael Walsh wrote a novel that covers the movie, and what happened before and after, called [As Time Goes By](http://www.amazon.com/As-Time-Goes-Michael-Walsh/dp/0446607452)… Come to think of it, I remember reading a book review in the early Eighties, I think it was, of a book that tied together a number of films’ characters from several different genres in a sort of all-embracing “Where are they now?” alternative history. I don’t remember what happened to the other characters, but ISTR that Ilsa ended up dying in the 1961 plane crash that killed UN Secretary-General Dag Hammarskjöld. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/32 "2010-06-28T16:13:45Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Oh, please. There is no “weh” sound in “Weygand.” It’s pronounced “Vey-gah(n).” There’s nothing even resembling a “d” sound in the way Ugarte pronounces it, the vowel sound in the first syllable is an “ay” (“de Gaulle” has a scwha sound), and it clearly ends with a French nasal sound that doesn’t exist in “de Gaulle.” One would have to be totally ignorant of the actual pronunciation of the two words in order to confuse them. I don’t know what film you’re watching, but in **Casablanca** , Ugarte is clearly either speaking of the letters of transit being signed by De Gaulle or mispronouncing the name of a 19th century painter and sculptor. > [@RealityChuck](#): > > As for Weygand being on the outs – this was Hollywood. They didn’t care and didn’t worry about trivia like that. The Epsteins just wanted the name of a French General, and that’s the one he picked. If this “disproves” the use of Weygand, then isn’t is even more wrong that they use “Degaulle”? It would not be unreasonable for the Epsteins to not know the current ins and outs of Vichy politics, but it’s a real stretch to think they didn’t know de Gaulle was on the other side. Although the film is set in December 1941, it was actually drafted in March and April 1942, and filmed in mid-1942, long after Weygand had been very publicly removed from office for speaking negatively about Nazi Germany. If the Epsteins and Koch were conversant enough with Vichy politics to select a public figure it seems more likely that they would have selected Philippe Pétain (Chief of State). It seems far more likely that Ugarte’s character and perhaps even the letters of transit were inserted into the script at some point just prior to or during filming, and the De Gaulle’s name was inserted as an error or a placeholder, and ended up being used for dialogue. Uncredited screenwriter Casey Robinson performed many of the late rewrites, and made a number of errors in regard to French and Vichy politics in the 1944 film _Passage to Marseilles_, so that may very well be the case here. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/33 "2010-06-28T16:27:15Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > I don’t know what film you’re watching, but in **Casablanca** , Ugarte is clearly either speaking of the letters of transit being signed by De Gaulle or mispronouncing the name of a 19th century painter and sculptor. Considering the fact that in your OP, you show didn’t even know how the word “Weygand” is pronounced, I fail to see how your declaration here carries any weight. Do you speak any French? If so, why did you even think that “Weygand” started with a “weh” sound? Your entire argument rests of that false assumption. > [@](#): > > Although the film is set in December 1941, it was actually drafted in March and April 1942, and filmed in mid-1942, long after Weygand had been very publicly removed from office for speaking negatively about Nazi Germany. If the Epsteins and Koch were conversant enough with Vichy politics to select a public figure it seems more likely that they would have selected Philippe Pétain (Chief of State). It seems far more likely that Ugarte’s character and perhaps even the letters of transit were inserted into the script at some point just prior to or during filming, and the De Gaulle’s name was inserted as an error or a placeholder, and ended up being used for dialogue. Uncredited screenwriter Casey Robinson performed many of the late rewrites, and made a number of errors in regard to French and Vichy politics in the 1944 film _Passage to Marseilles_, so that may very well be the case here. Circular reasoning. You hear de Gaulle (because you don’t know how Weygand is actually pronounced) and then from that assumption, come up with a strained scenario to show why they might use “de Gaulle” to prove that you heard de Gaulle. Hollywood wasn’t following the ins and outs of Vichy French politics, and just picked the name of the the most prominent Vichy general. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/34 "2010-06-28T16:43:01Z")
Addendum: I finally deciphered what you meant by the 19th Century painter and sculptor, and now you show you don’t know how “de Gaulle” is pronounced, either. The first syllables of “de Gaulle” and “Degas” are not pronounced the same. Evidently, you don’t know this. So your analysis depends on mispronouncing both “De Gaulle” and “Weygand.” ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/35 "2010-06-28T17:46:57Z")
Dammit, you guys are gonna make me watch this movie again, aren’t you? ---
**Author:** ![TruCelt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/trucelt/32/523_2.png) [@TruCelt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TruCelt)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/36 "2010-06-28T18:18:29Z")
I think the whole point of the Bulgarian couple was to show that when push comes to shove, Rick is an honorable gent. (giving the money to the husband to prevent the woman from having to do soemthing horrid.) And to illustrate the kinds of choices that an honorable woman might make in the circumstances of war. I don’t think he slept with Ilsa at all, ever. And I think he “did the right thing” in the context of the times, by sending her on with her husband. By “we got it back” he means that now he knows she wasn’t just leading him on. that what he felt was real, and shared, and she left him at the station for the same reason that he sent her on from the airport. Using their love as an excuse to do something dishonorable would ultimately destroy it. ---
**Author:** ![Sigmagirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c89c15/32.png) [@Sigmagirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sigmagirl)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/37 "2010-06-28T18:43:20Z")
That’s so beautiful. I – I have something in my eye. Oh, okay. It’s a hill of beans. They totally did it. ---
**Author:** ![carnivorousplant](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnivorousplant/32/3563_2.png) [@carnivorousplant](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/carnivorousplant)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/38 "2010-06-28T18:46:59Z")
> [@outlierrn](#): > > Dammit, you guys are gonna make me watch this movie again, aren’t you? No, everyone agrees on the important part: Bogie shot first. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/39 "2010-06-28T19:50:42Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Oh, please. There is no “weh” sound in “Weygand.” It’s pronounced “Vey-gah(n).” There’s nothing even resembling a “d” sound in the way Ugarte pronounces it, the vowel sound in the first syllable is an “ay” (“de Gaulle” has a scwha sound), and it clearly ends with a French nasal sound that doesn’t exist in “de Gaulle.” One would have to be totally ignorant of the actual pronunciation of the two words in order to confuse them. > > As for Weygand being on the outs – this was Hollywood. They didn’t care and didn’t worry about trivia like that. The Epsteins just wanted the name of a French General, and that’s the one he picked. If this “disproves” the use of Weygand, then isn’t is even more wrong that they use “Degaulle”? It would not be unreasonable for the Epsteins to not know the current ins and outs of Vichy politics, but it’s a real stretch to think they didn’t know de Gaulle was on the other side. The Epsteins were admirably honest about some of the shortcuts they took. They admitted, for instance, that there was no such thing as a “letter of transit.” It was just a useful plot device. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [June 28, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656/40 "2010-06-28T19:51:33Z")
> [@carnivorousplant](#): > > No, everyone agrees on the important part: Bogie shot first. 🙂 And Renault was shocked, SHOCKED, to hear about it!😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/casablanca-question/544656.md?page=3)