# Case files? We don't need no stinking case files! (Gitmo related) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [January 26, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097 "2009-01-26T19:11:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/1 "2009-01-26T19:11:41Z")
[WaPo](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/01/24/AR2009012401702.html) So the Obama administration is ready to look into invidvidual case files for the Guantanamo Bay detainees and start making case by case evaluations. This information is something they were not allowed access to until the inauguration. It seems there’s a snag – they’re AREN’T any decent case files: > [@](#): > > Instead, they found that information on individual prisoners is “scattered throughout the executive branch,” a senior administration official said… > > …Several former Bush administration officials agreed that the files are incomplete and that no single government entity was charged with pulling together all the facts and the range of options for each prisoner. They said that the CIA and other intelligence agencies were reluctant to share information, and that the Bush administration’s focus on detention and interrogation made preparation of viable prosecutions a far lower priority… > …Charles D. “Cully” Stimson, who served as deputy assistant defense secretary for detainee affairs in 2006-2007, said he had persistent problems in attempts to assemble all information on individual cases. Threats to recommend the release or transfer of a detainee were often required, he said, to persuade the CIA to “cough up a sentence or two.” > > A second former Pentagon official said most individual files are heavily summarized dossiers that do not contain the kind of background and investigative work that would be put together by a federal prosecution team. He described “regular food fights” among different parts of the government over information-sharing on the detainees… It sounds like the Justice department never bothered to compile any decent case files because they never thought they’d actually have to try anything, and they were caught off guard by Supreme Court decisions: > [@](#): > > Justice Department lawyers responding in federal courts to defense challenges over the past six months have said repeatedly that the government was overwhelmed by the sudden need to assemble material after Supreme Court rulings giving detainees habeas corpus and other rights. > > In one federal filing, the Justice Department said that “the record . . . is not simply a collection of papers sitting in a box at the Defense Department. It is a massive undertaking just to produce the record in this one case.” In another filing, the department said that “defending these cases requires an intense, inter-agency coordination of efforts. None of the relevant agencies, however, was prepared to handle this volume of habeas cases on an expedited basis.” > > Evidence gathered for military commission trials is in disarray, according to some former officials, who said military lawyers lacked the trial experience to prosecute complex international terrorism cases. > > In a court filing this month, Darrel Vandeveld, a former military prosecutor at Guantanamo who asked to be relieved of his duties, said evidence was “strewn throughout the prosecution offices in desk drawers, bookcases packed with vaguely-labeled plastic containers, or even simply piled on the tops of desks.” > > He said he once accidentally found “crucial physical evidence” that “had been tossed in a locker located at Guantanamo and promptly forgotten.” So it looks like Obama is going to be set back in the process because of the incompetence, lack of organization, lack of professionalism and basic lack of giving a shit by the previous administration. Instead of being able to pull up a folder on Joe Detainee, they have to call a bunch of different agencies and find out what each one has, and where. They have to rifle through desks and lockers and car trunks to find out what kind of evidence and case – if any – they have against any given prisoner. Not only does it show the utter disregard the Bushistas had for the human rights of the hostages at Gitmo (something we already knew), it shows that they didn’t even have any regard for their own cases against them. They never gave a shit about having to prove anything, and never even bothered to compile coherent cases. I think we’re going to find out more stuff like this. I think we’re going to find out more stories about Bush basically leaving the place a shithole for Obama to clean up. Fuckers. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/2 "2009-01-26T19:40:49Z")
Surely this can’t surprise you, Dio. When was the Bush/Cheney adminstration anything about evil and incompetent? Wait: they helped out AIDS victims in Africa. But APART from that, when were they ever any different? ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/3 "2009-01-26T19:44:28Z")
I hope the current administration makes it clear that anyone without a coherent case against them will be released. And that any person or agency that had the information to keep them locked up but didn’t produce it will be held responsible for any releases we may come to regret. But really, in such a situation, the only thing a good executive and judicial branch can do is release anyone without a documented reason for their continued incarceration. I can hardly believe that the previous administration didn’t even think it was worth jotting down a couple of made-up reasons for the lock-ups. They were usually good for a transparent lie or two whenever it served their purpose. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/4 "2009-01-26T19:48:09Z")
And of course the hard-core right now has nice little, “Stop blaming Bush,” / “Obama goes back on his word,” talking points to throw about like a phantom birth certificate. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/5 "2009-01-26T21:25:24Z")
I might be a good thing Bush has Gitmo built. For some reason I keep thinking we will need a large holding area for all the corrupt officials in the Bush/Cheney administration. As we send most of these detainees home in the upcoming year their cells might prove very useful. I would really like to start with Old Man Potter himself. ---
**Author:** ![Alienhand](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8edcca/32.png) [@Alienhand](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alienhand)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/6 "2009-01-26T22:21:45Z")
So basically, some of the detainees are being held because someone in some agency somewhere says so and there is no oversight or collection point…sounding like this was pretty much SOP for the Bush administration. Some underlings that quit during the eight years had stories about abuse of various programs (detention, spying\*, no-bid contracts or otherwise) because no one was watching what was going on. I was willing to dismiss some of the stories as just sour grapes but I think I’m going to go back and read as many as I can find so I can brace myself as the real stories come out in the next few years. \*Recording the soldier’s pillow talk with their SOs so the next shift can listen to them, still really chaps my ass even amongst the more egregious accusations and implications ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/7 "2009-01-26T22:30:35Z")
> [@What\_Exit](#): > > I might be a good thing Bush has Gitmo built. For some reason I keep thinking we will need a large holding area for all the corrupt officials in the Bush/Cheney administration. As we send most of these detainees home in the upcoming year their cells might prove very useful. I would really like to start with Old Man Potter himself. Pish, you’ll fill up gitmo with the politicians from Illinois alone. Yeah. Lost 'em, that’s what happened. Maybe Barney ate em, or they were accidentally put out with the recycling. Perhaps they were mixed up with the carry out menus in the white house junk drawer. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/8 "2009-01-26T22:47:08Z")
> [@Jack\_Batty](#): > > And of course the hard-core right now has nice little, “Stop blaming Bush,” / “Obama goes back on his word,” talking points to throw about like a phantom birth certificate. So are we about done with blaming Clinton? Cause I was getting tired of that one. I guess the old “respect the office of the president even if you don’t agree with him” canard is out the window too. When a significant portion of the public simply “knows” that everyone in Gitmo is a guilty terrorist, it really is a waste of time to collect or collate evidence. ---
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2009, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/9 "2009-01-26T23:15:57Z")
I thought it was impossible for me to be shocked anymore by anything coming out of the Bush years. Would you look at that, I was wrong. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/10 "2009-01-27T02:23:47Z")
I was listening to Fox News the other day and one of the fucktards said" “So what are we going to do about the detainees we don’t have evidence against, release them even though they are guilty?” ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/11 "2009-01-27T02:36:31Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > “So what are we going to do about the detainees we don’t have evidence against, release them even though they are guilty?” English common law is our friend: > [@](#): > > the Assize of Clarendon, enacted in 1166 and the first great legislative act in the reign of the English Angevin King Henry II, the law of the land required that: “anyone, who shall be found, on the oath of the aforesaid [a jury], to be accused or notoriously suspect of having been a robber or murderer or thief, or a receiver of them … be taken and put to the ordeal of water.” > **[Trial by ordeal](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trial_by_ordeal)** > > Trial by ordeal was an ancient judicial practice by which the guilt or innocence of the accused (called a "proband") was determined by subjecting them to a painful, or at least an unpleasant, usually dangerous experience. > In medieval Europe, like trial by combat, trial by ordeal, such as cruentation, was sometimes considered a "judgement of God" (Latin: jūdicium Deī, Old English: Godes dōm): a procedure based on the premise that God would help the innocent by performing a miracle on their beh In... ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/12 "2009-01-27T03:15:19Z")
So are terrorists made of wood? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/13 "2009-01-27T03:35:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > So are terrorists made of wood? Build a bridge out of them! (All part of the infrastructure-investment package.) ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/14 "2009-01-27T04:06:39Z")
Well this is another fine kettle of turds. Are any of these guys guilty of _anything_? They must be, I keep assuring myself, it can’t be a complete and utter…oh, who am I kidding, of course it could. No files? No chain of custody for evidence? Hell, no _evidence_? Even for that number who are guilty as all git-out, a ten year old boy who’s watched a full season of _Boston Legal_ could make the prosecution’s case look like road kill surprise. Could they _possibly_ fuck this up more than they have? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/15 "2009-01-27T04:11:02Z")
It seems pretty clear that the previous adminstration’s plan (perhaps “plan” is too strong a word for it… perhaps “cock-up”) was to simply pass along the ginormous screw-up along to the next administration and let them try to fix it. The more it was screwed up, the harder it will be to fix. Ha ha! I would not be surprised to have them try to blame Obama for Gitmo. 25% of the population would buy any lie they peddled, hook, line and sinker. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/16 "2009-01-27T04:20:21Z")
Is there anybody who can be charged for this? (In the government, I mean-basically, without case files, these people were never really formally arrested, just locked up) Like say, a certain Texan moron, and a grouchy old bastard with a bad aim? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 4:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/17 "2009-01-27T04:20:35Z")
Problem is, by not competently processing and keeping information, the Bush administration is making it far more difficult to determine which prisoners are and which prisoners are not terrorists. This harms both human rights and national security. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/18 "2009-01-27T04:25:49Z")
Oh good, I thought we wouldn’t have any more liberal douche circle jerk threads after Jan. 20. Thanks for keepin’ it real for us, Dio. This is one of those stories that is inevitable given the pre-disposition of certain reporters to spin facts a certain way. The real crux of this is that the complaint is not supported by facts, so it’s impossible to refute with facts because the goalposts are too easy to move. What’s the definition of a “case file”? Must it be a physical file folder containing paper bearing written or typed words that contain 100% of the facts about a particular detainee? If there is a single fact about a detainee that is on a different piece of paper contained in a different folder, does it mean that the first folder is no longer a “case file” because it does not contain 100% of the facts about that detainee? And what is a “comprehensive case file”? And how many detainees do not have “comprehensive case files”? (The article says “many.”) Do any of the detainees without “comprehensive case files” still have “case files”? If so, how far away from “comprehensive case files” are these “case files”? I’m sure you are thinking “come on, we know what a case file is, geez.” But the article never defines it, so how can we know what it means to say that “many” detainees do not have “comprehensive case files”? I know the answer–bush is bad so of course whatever his administration did was wrong. It is easy to read this story and get all upset, but once you realize that the story contains very few facts, you realize that it was possible to write it before any facts were available because this way of spinning the available facts is always possible. For instance, after 9/11 there were calls for more inter-agency cooperation (such as sharing iformation). Now this article comes along and complains that information about detainees is scattered across the executive branch. What if the information each agency has is duplicative of information other agencies have and was “scattered” to promote inter-agency cooperation? And you can always find a former official that didn’t like something to give you a nice complaining sound bite. I could go on, but hopefully this will be enough to jumpstart some of the brains of those that are so eager to jump all over the outgoing administration over this. ---
**Author:** ![Rand\_Rover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/db5fbb/32.png) [@Rand\_Rover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rand_Rover)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/19 "2009-01-27T04:27:21Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Is there anybody who can be charged for this? (In the government, I mean-basically, without case files, these people were never really formally arrested, just locked up) Like say, a certain Texan moron, and a grouchy old bastard with a bad aim? Charged for what exactly? Failing to maintain “comprehensive case files” on “many” detainees in the opinion of two WaPo staff writers? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [January 27, 2009, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097/20 "2009-01-27T04:30:14Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > What’s the definition of a “case file”? Must it be a physical file folder containing paper bearing written or typed words that contain 100% of the facts about a particular detainee? Yeah, that’s what any **lawyer** worth his salt would create and maintain. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/case-files-we-dont-need-no-stinking-case-files-gitmo-related/483097.md?page=2)