# Cases where the parody are more well known than the Original **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 18, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465 "2016-02-18T17:52:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/161 "2020-05-07T20:12:14Z")
> [@bonzer](#): > > This surely counts. Even those of us who have read Fraser have surely no more than skimmed Hughes. > > Except that I’m not sure I’d describe Fraser as a “parody” of Hughes. The Flashman novels are more of an “anti-riff” on him rather than a detailed parody. Fraser was running with elements of Hughes, but, more importantly, was satirising other elements of Victorian culture. Hughes was only the starting point. I read Tom Brown once, but it’s dated and boring to a American. However, I have reread and own most Flashman books. The first Flashman book is more of the parody, after that, nope. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/162 "2020-05-07T20:30:44Z")
> [@Rhythmdvl](#): > > By the way, if you haven’t seen the [side-by-side Zero Hour/Airplane! comparison](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-v2BHNBVCs)it’s worth the watch—you’ll appreciate Airplane! on a whole new level! That was great, thank you! ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/163 "2020-05-07T20:54:37Z")
> [@BrickBat](#): > > What bugs me is that that this scene is very often used by wags by substituting the original subtitles to ones used to carry some parodic humor about another subject. So much so that most people know that scene only as a stand-alone clip, and not that it’s part of a great film. When told of the film, they’re completely indifferent. Actually, I became aware of the movie from those clips, and was prompted to watch it because of them. Yes, it’s great. Particularly chilling is Goebbels and his wife murdering their six children before committing suicide. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2020, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/164 "2020-05-07T20:57:49Z")
And note, what we think of as a parody isnt always a true parody. I give several levels or types: Pastiche: This is a loving tribute to the original. Solar Pons is a pastiche of Sherlock Holmes. Parody: this makes fun or- in either a gentle or save way- the original. Travesty: This takes the original and changes it is a way that would be horrific to the original author: _The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen_ makes a travesty of H Rider Haggards hero._Wicked: The Life and Times of the Wicked Witch of the West_ is a travesty of Wizard of Oz. Nicer word than “travesty” is “revisionist” Ripoff: purely for money, some travesties may be ripoffs. Does it give credit to the original? Now, none of the characters in Watchmen are original- and no credit- iirc- is give to the originals. Does that make Watchman a Pastiche, a Parody or a Travesty? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/165 "2020-05-08T09:35:45Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Now, none of the characters in Watchmen are original Yes, they are. The original impetus was to use the Charlton characters, but the \*Watchmen \*characters morphed enough from those that they were original characters by the time the comic was published, not just pastiches (in as much as any comic character has been original since the 40s). And everyone was quite open about that process, so accusations of “no credit” are unfounded, IMO. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/166 "2020-05-08T19:45:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Yes, they are. The original impetus was to use the Charlton characters, but the \*Watchmen \*characters morphed enough from those that they were original characters by the time the comic was published, not just pastiches (in as much as any comic character has been original since the 40s). And everyone was quite open about that process, so accusations of “no credit” are unfounded, IMO. > **[Watchmen](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen)** > > Watchmen is a comic book limited series by the British creative team of writer Alan Moore, artist Dave Gibbons and colorist John Higgins. It was published monthly by DC Comics in 1986 and 1987 before being collected in a single-volume edition in 1987. Watchmen originated from a story proposal Moore submitted to DC featuring superhero characters that the company had acquired from Charlton Comics. As Moore's proposed story would have left many of the characters unusable for future stories, mana... _Moore based Rorschach on Ditko’s creation Mr. A;[27] Ditko’s Charlton character The Question also served as a template for creating Rorschach.[15] … Nite Owl was based on the Ted Kord version of the Blue Beetle. P_ “everyone was quite open about that process”- so the Watchmen comics explained that? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/167 "2020-05-08T20:04:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > [Watchmen - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watchmen) > _Moore based Rorschach on Ditko’s creation Mr. A;[27] Ditko’s Charlton character The Question also served as a template for creating Rorschach.[15] … Nite Owl was based on the Ted Kord version of the Blue Beetle. P_ > “everyone was quite open about that process”- so the Watchmen comics explained that? “based … on”. “served as a template”. “was based on” Gosh, that sounds exactly like what I said. And by “open”, I mean no-one has ever denied the foundation of the Charlton characters. And there was enough talk about it in the fandom [at the time](https://web.archive.org/web/20130209015518/http://www.tcj.com/a-portal-to-another-dimension-alan-moore-dave-gibbons-and-neil-gaiman/). Not a big secret. > [@](#): > > He said, “Can you change the characters around and come up with some new ones?” At first I wasn’t sure whether that would work, but when Dave and I got together and started just planning these things out, it all really snapped into place and worked fine. I’m much happier now doing it with **original characters**. My emphasis But your notion that the first issue should have contained some kind of giant holo-foil “The part of Mr A is now played by Rorschach” disclaimer is laughable. Ha. There, see, I laughed. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/168 "2020-05-08T20:19:27Z")
This might be a generational thing, but I can tell you I knew “Duck Dodgers in the 24½th Century” long before I’d heard of Buck Rogers. I don’t think this has been mentioned yet (but I only skimmed most of the thread), but IIRC Weird Al’s “White and Nerdy” is more well known that “Ridin’”. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/169 "2020-05-08T20:30:03Z")
How about [“that great parody” that George Harrison did of “He’s So Fine”](https://youtu.be/qbtNOHKKdc8?t=58)? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/170 "2020-05-08T20:32:50Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > “based … on”. “served as a template”. “was based on” > > Gosh, that sounds exactly like what I said. > > And by “open”, I mean no-one has ever denied the foundation of the Charlton characters. And there was enough talk about it in the fandom [at the time](https://web.archive.org/web/20130209015518/http://www.tcj.com/a-portal-to-another-dimension-alan-moore-dave-gibbons-and-neil-gaiman/). Not a big secret. > > My emphasis > > But your notion that the first issue should have contained some kind of giant holo-foil “The part of Mr A is now played by Rorschach” disclaimer is laughable. > > Ha. There, see, I laughed. You didnt use\* any \*of those terms or words. So, it doesnt sound at all like what you said. If you are stealing someone’s work, it’s not enuf to “have it discussed in fandom”. Trust me, my stuff is stolen all the time, I know about copyright and plagiarism. Note that the original Captain Marvel was considered close enough to Superman that a copyright suit was filed and Fawcett stopped using him and sold him to DC. Captain Marvel (aka Shazam) isnt Superman, they are fairly different. But the point was that Marvel was based on Supes- and that won the case (settled out of court, Fawcett conceded). So, yeah, Rorschach isnt exactly Mr. A or the Question- but he is _based upon them-_ that would be enough to lose, based upon the Fawcett suit. Obviously since DC owned both watchman and those characters, they werent gonna sue. But some decent regard for others people creative efforts demands at least a mention- but of course Moore has no decent regard for anyone else but himself and his inflated ego. ---
**Author:** ![Dropo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ce7236/32.png) [@Dropo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dropo)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/171 "2020-05-08T20:42:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > …So, yeah, Rorschach isnt exactly Mr. A or the Question- but he is _based upon them-_ that would be enough to lose, based upon the Fawcett suit. Obviously since DC owned both watchman and those characters, they werent gonna sue… Nitpick: DC has never owned Mr. A. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Prize](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d2c977/32.png) [@Sir\_Prize](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Prize)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2020, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/172 "2020-05-08T21:36:17Z")
The comic market was tanking so Fawcett got out of the business. They may have ended up winning the suit if they had continued to fight it, it just wasn’t worth continuing. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 7:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/173 "2020-05-09T07:38:55Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > You didnt use\* any \*of those terms or words. So, it doesnt sound at all like what you said. Me: The original impetus was… You (quoting Wiki): Based on… Also You: Didn’t use the same words, not the same. Me: SMFH. > [@](#): > > If you are stealing someone’s work If you are begging the question… > [@](#): > > So, yeah, Rorschach isnt exactly Mr. A or the Question- but he is _based upon them-_ that would be enough to lose, based upon the Fawcett suit. No. You have a complete misunderstanding of [the Fawcett suit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Marvel_(DC_Comics)#Copyright_infringement_lawsuit_and_cancellation). > [@Wiki](#): > > Judge Hand did not find that the character of Captain Marvel itself was an infringement, The key point in the Fawcett suit was that some Captain Marvel stories were\*\* actual copies\*\* of Superman stories. > [@ibid.](#): > > specific stories or super feats could be infringements, and this would have to be determined in a retrial Said retrial never happened, BTW, so drawing any conclusions about what is and isn’t considered ripping-off in comics from it is risible. Heh. There, I risled. > [@](#): > > Obviously since DC owned both watchman and those characters, they werent gonna sue. Ditko retains rights to Mr A. He’s never sued Moore for plagiarism. And if he did, it would be laughed out of court. \*Because \*everyone’s been quite open about the whole process of _Watchmen_’s character creation. > [@](#): > > Moore has no decent regard for anyone else but himself and his inflated ego. This isn’t really about the minutiae of copyright, is it? ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2020, 11:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/174 "2020-05-09T11:32:20Z")
Learn something new daily. Wow, I thought for sure _Airplane!_ was based on _Runway Zero-Eight_. Aha, it was, sort of. That is, the plot of _Zero Hour_ is the same exact storyline as _Runway Zero-Eight_. Must be a story behind that one. It’s all Arthur Hailey. Did he just keep writing the same damn story over and over again? I mean, _Airport_ is also highly similar. ---
**Author:** ![Pushkin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ee59a6/32.png) [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/175 "2020-05-17T00:33:05Z")
> [@sciurophobic](#): > > How many people have seen _Zero Hour_? Do we need to if we’ve seen Airplane!? ---
**Author:** ![actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e79b87/32.png) [@actualliberalnotoneofthose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/actualliberalnotoneofthose)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2020, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/176 "2020-05-17T01:21:22Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > This might be a generational thing, but I can tell you I knew “Duck Dodgers in the 24½th Century” long before I’d heard of Buck Rogers. > > I don’t think this has been mentioned yet (but I only skimmed most of the thread), but IIRC Weird Al’s “White and Nerdy” is more well known that “Ridin’”. I’m going to agree with the earlier poster that, while many of Al’s songs are very well known (and done), I don’t know that any of them are more well-known than the originals or at least the originals are not obscure/forgotten. “Ridin” was a #1 single and Grammy winner and the phrase “Ridin Dirty” is something that is well-known and used today. I have a couple 30-something white co-workers who used that exact phrase in a Facebook post yesterday. While Chamillionaire is somewhat of a 1-hit wonder , though in my circles he was known for his earlier music with Paul Wall and he did have a 2nd Gold album and a couple more charting/certified singles, he is now well-known in the business world for ventures like his investment in Maker Studios and association with VCs. I’m a 40 year-old white guy who at one point probably knew “Eat It” as well as the original, but I’d never say it reached anywhere close to the original. And during the release of “Ridin” I was an underground hip-hop snob, so I only was exposed to it unintentionally. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2020, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/177 "2020-05-19T19:43:42Z")
> [@erysichthon](#): > > I love Dave Barry, but his notorious “worst song” poll is largely responsible for the myth that MacArthur Park is an obscure, unpopular song. It isn’t and it never was. I know I’m replying to a years-old post here, but what the hell: Besides being a bad song, there was only one criterion for eligibility for Dave Barry’s “worst songs” polls: it had to have gotten enough airplay to be remembered. Which put a limit on how obscure it could be, and also meant that regardless of how many people thought the song sucked even at the time, enough people liked it that it kept on getting played. ---
**Author:** ![Horatio\_Hellpop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Horatio\_Hellpop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatio_Hellpop)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/178 "2020-05-20T05:57:13Z")
Can a faithless adaptation be considered a parody? Thinking about \*Starship Troopers \*here… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2020, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/179 "2020-05-20T10:48:07Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > Can a faithless adaptation be considered a parody? Thinking about \*Starship Troopers \*here… I would say no. It’s just satire. If parts of it are a parody, they’d be a parody of wartime propaganda films. ---
**Author:** ![Happytree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/happytree/32/3555_2.png) [@Happytree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happytree)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2020, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465/180 "2020-05-22T02:55:33Z")
In the movie “Half Baked”, Jim Brewers character quits his job with a Tom Cruise line from “Jerry Maguire”: " I’m not gonna do what everyone thinks I’m gonna do…" At the time the movie was made, anyone would have gotten the reference. Today, “Half Baked” is a classic, and "Jerry Maguire"s popularity has not held on. I doubt many folks remember what the line was from, even if they saw JM back in 1996 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cases-where-the-parody-are-more-well-known-than-the-original/746465.md?page=8)