Casino: Table Game Lessons?

[Bricker]

*Originally posted by Flash-57 *
In Roulette, for example, every single bet (except one) that you can make on the table will pay off at the same overall return. So, there is no real strategy that works any better or worse than any other. You could just drop chips from your hand onto the board and do exactly as well as people who study the game and try to use strategy.

What are you talking about?

It’s true that Red / Black, Odd / Even, 1:18 / 19:36 all pay 1:1.

And each has the same chance of happening.

Then there’s the single number bet, paying 35:1 and having a 1/38 chance of happening.

But there’s also the 1:12 / 13:24 / 25:36 column bets, which pay 2:1 and happen 12/38ths of the time. You may bet on any two adjacent numbers, any four adjacent numbers, and on six adjacent numbers, at 17:1, 8:1, and 5:1 odds respectively.

How do you figure that every single bet (except one) will pay off at the same overall return?

• Rick

[rjung]

*Originally posted by Bricker *
It’s true that Red / Black, Odd / Even, 1:18 / 19:36 all pay 1:1.

And each has the same chance of happening.

Just to nitpick, but aren’t you forgetting the greens (zero and double zero) here?

I usually just play craps, myself, and stick with playing the odds on pass/don’t pass.

[ookpik]

I live 5 minutes away from the Casino de Hull, and yes they do provide lessons/coaching for the novice.

Just ask at the reception desk.

[Sam_Stone]

It makes no sense to have a bet without getting odds IMHO. Without odds, you will never win better than even money. With odds you can win more than even money, and that is one of the few advantages you have.

You seem to be saying that you can gain an advantage over the house this way. This is not correct. The ‘odds’ bets are even money bets with the house, but the original pass line bet has a house advantage of 1.4%.

So if you put 10 on the passline, it costs you 14 cents to play. If you take 10X odds, it STILL costs you 14 cents to play, except now the variance is much bigger because for your .14 you get a chance to win $110. But whether you take odds or not, the house is still going to collect 14 cents on your wager.

Bricker: If you do the math, you’ll see that ALL the combinations you mentioned work out to a house advantage of 5.26%. There is one exception, and that is the ‘5-way’ bet at the top of the field. That’s even worse. But whether you play odd/even, a group of numbers, or an individual number, the house edge remains the same.

[muttrox]

*Originally posted by Duke of Rat *
**It makes no sense to have a bet without getting odds IMHO. Without odds, you will never win better than even money. With odds you can win more than even money, and that is one of the few advantages you have. **

Simply wrong. Please try and justify how you get above even money.

[muttrox]

D12: This is what odds are.

Let’s say you place a Pass line bet, the standard craps bet. The bet is $10. The shooter takes his/her first roll, and a point is established. (That is, the “comeout” roll was not a 2,3,7,11,12, it was a 4,5,6,8,9,10 and they are now trying to get that number before a 7 comes up.)

If this casino allows up to 4x betting, aka 4x “odds behind the line”, you can bet up to $40 additionally at this point. Let’s say you bet the full $40. You take $40 in chips and place it behind your original pass line bet.

If you win, your original bet pays off at 1:1, you will get $10 for it. Your $40 odds bet will win at a payoff that is determined by what the point was. This payoff is a true mathematically even bet, neither you nor the house has the edge.

If the point was a 4 or a 10, the odds are 2:1 against the shooter getting a 4 or a 10 before a 7 comes up. If they do, your $40 will payoff at 2:1, and you will get $80 for it, in addition to your original $10 bet.

Likewise, the odds of converting a 5 or 9 are 3:2 against. If it wins, you would recieve $60, a 3:2 payoff. The odds of a 6 or 8 are 6:5 against. In this case you would recieve $48 (forgot if that gets rounded down though).

Because the payoffs are in direct proportion to the odds, it is a truly mathematical even bet, the best in the casino.

Note that you must first make a mathematically uneven bet (the original pass line bet) to make the good bet. Also note that you must put much more money on the table to use it, so a short run of bad luck can wipe you out. But short of card counting, this is the best bet the casino offers. The pass line bet is a very good bet by casino standards, and taking the odds further “dilutes” the casino’s edge.

[muttrox]

*Originally posted by Bricker *
**It’s true that Red / Black, Odd / Even, 1:18 / 19:36 all pay 1:1.

And each has the same chance of happening.

Then there’s the single number bet, paying 35:1 and having a 1/38 chance of happening.

But there’s also the 1:12 / 13:24 / 25:36 column bets, which pay 2:1 and happen 12/38ths of the time. You may bet on any two adjacent numbers, any four adjacent numbers, and on six adjacent numbers, at 17:1, 8:1, and 5:1 odds respectively.
**

Rick:
Bet $1.
If you cover 1 number, you get $36 back.
(including your original bet)
If you cover 2 numbers, you get half of that $36, or $18.
If you cover 3 numbers, you get 1/3 that, $12.
If you cover 4 numbers, you get 1/4 that, $9.
If you cover 6 numbers, you get 1/6 that, $6.
If you cover 9 numbers (column bet), you get 1/9 that, $4.
If you cover 18 numbers (odd/even, R/B, 1-18/19-36), you get 1/18 that, $2.

Notice the direct proportionality between how many numbers a bet covers and the payoff.

Note that you could cover 6 numbers either by covering two rows with a 6-chip stack, or you could do it by throwing 6 chips in the air and seeing where they land. Either way, you cover 6 numbers and expect to get back the same amount of money in a win.

The only weirdness in this pattern is covering 0,00,1,2,3 at the same time. In this case, you would expect to get 1/5 of the $36. But because this is not a round number, the casino rounds down on you, so you don’t get the same proprotional payout. This is the only bet to avoid.

The column bets cover 9 out of 38 spaces, and pay off at 2:1. Half as many spaces, but twice as much payoff.

[Duke_of_Rat]

*Originally posted by Sam Stone *
**You seem to be saying that you can gain an advantage over the house this way. This is not correct. The ‘odds’ bets are even money bets with the house, but the original pass line bet has a house advantage of 1.4%.

B]

Well, I might have worded it better. I didn’t mean an advantage over the house, I meant more of a player strategy on any particular roll. The overall odds of the game will remain the same.

If, while at the table, you only bet the pass line without taking odds you will only win (or lose) the amount of the bet. Bet $10, win (or lose) $10.

If you take odds, you can win more than the amount of your bet, but only lose the amount of your bet. Bet $10 with $20 odds, you can win $10 + more than $20, but not lose more than $30.

I prefaced my remark with it being an opinion, but it seems to me if you can win more than than you bet, it makes sense to do so.

[QUOTE]
Originally posted by muttrox

Simply wrong. Please try and justify how you get above even money.

Same mistake on my wording. What I was trying to say is basically the same as I stated to Sam above.

What I was trying to convey to the OP was that while the pass line will only pay you the amount of your bet, the odds bet will pay you more than the amount of your bet, while at the same time not allowing you to lose progressively more…on a particular roll. Again, the overall, long term odds of the game do not change.

If I bet $40 on the pass line with no odds, I can only win $40. No way around it. And only expose myself to a loss of $40.

If I bet $10 on the pass line with $30 odds, I can win more than $40 dollars, and will win more than $40 unless I lose. If I lose, I still lost only $40. So with the same amount of risk played a different manner I have a chance to win more than I wagered.

Now that might not be better than even money, I admit my vocabulary is lacking here, but to me even money would be bet $40, win $40. Better than even money would be bet $40, win more than $40.

To me, that makes sense to take the odds.

[Duke_of_Rat]

Might have coded it better, too.

[muttrox]

I see what you are saying. You realize by that same logic, it is an insanely good bet to play the lottery? You can only lose $1, but you can win millions.

[SenorBeef]

Just paying you off more money than you put down obviously doesn’t make anything a good bet. If the odds are 50/50 that you’ll win, then make that bet all day - but if it pays 3:1 and there’s a 1/4th chance you’ll hit it, that’s the same as something that doubles your money with a 50/50 chance of hitting it. The expected value of the bet is the same.

[shannablu]

I know most casinos at least have pamphlets explaining the games. I you can time it right, look for a table that has few or no players, most casino employees will be glad to explain the game to a first time player. Roulette is a very self-explanatory game and one of the easiest to play, but it also has the worst payoffs.

[muttrox]

Use caution with that approach. I tried it one time for kicks, and the feller at the craps told me two things that were incorrect, and tried to guide me towards sucker bets.

Pamphlets wil tell you the rules, they won’t tell you what is a good play and what isn’t. You are better off getting a book, or looking for online resources, and doing the research before you ever step on the floor.