# Caster Semenya and Gender Tests in Sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088 "2009-08-20T16:19:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/181 "2009-09-10T00:12:21Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I didn’t see anything wrong with the testing but the whole, “Look, she’s really a girl” thing is giving me a weird vibe. Like, “Look, she can conform!” I think its the “look thats a man in a dress” vibe. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/182 "2009-09-10T00:15:05Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I think its the “look thats a man in a dress” vibe. I don’t think she looks like a man in a dress. I just think it’s sad that it came to this. Like, who cares if she can be girly. Let’s focus on the issue of whether or not she can compete fairly with other women. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/183 "2009-09-10T04:37:22Z")
If Tim Curry looked female enough in “Rocky Horror,” but trashed every other “female enough” competitor in a distance race, AND made no bones (heh!) about being a “man trapped in a woman’s body,” would you cut him/her a pass and let that person trash every record attained by a genetic female? Yes? Then you are not only unrealistic, but also toss any performance by my wife and daughters in the dustbin. Females have many fine qualities. Many (most?) females can outrun males like me. This does not mean they can shoot at most of the absolute records. Males are mostly useless, but we tend to kick ass at targets we create. My advice? Aspire to other targets. Make it what fits the expectations of whoever is writing the rules/owns the venue, not who wrote the first set of rules. I’m off to visit with my daughter’s-boyfriend’s bulldog-basset cross. He’ll never win Windsor, but he’s a helluva dog. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/184 "2009-09-10T14:04:57Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > I didn’t see anything wrong with the testing but the whole, “Look, she’s really a girl” thing is giving me a weird vibe. Like, “Look, she can conform!” Sure it’s creepy. But on whose part? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/185 "2009-09-10T14:55:20Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > I hereby tender my apology. Unfortunately, it’s a somewhat limited one. I took your reference to the “original quote” as a reference to the OP, just as Freudian Slit said. It did not contain the word “disadvantaged”, and thus my post. Then I likewise apologize for the lack of clarity on my part. I thought I was clearly referencing the post I quoted when I originally commented on the person’s use of the word “disadvantaged,” but as two people misunderstood me, apparently not. > [@dropzone](#): > > If Tim Curry looked female enough in “Rocky Horror,” but trashed every other “female enough” competitor in a distance race, AND made no bones (heh!) about being a “man trapped in a woman’s body,” would you cut him/her a pass and let that person trash every record attained by a genetic female? I’m guessing you actually mean “woman trapped in a man’s body” and will respond accordingly. If Tim Curry claimed to be a woman in a man’s body, that would make him transsexual, and he’d be taking hormones. There are already standards by which MtF trans women can compete as women once they’ve been on hormones for two years. Semenya is not MtF transgendered. She is, at most, intersexed, and not in a way that would be obvious to someone staring at her genitals. Tests show that Semenya has a high level of testosterone for a woman (something around three times the average level), but that is still very far below the normal range for a man, which would be [40 to 60 times](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Testosterone) that of the average female. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/186 "2009-09-10T19:03:52Z")
Just coming in to add the latest on this, from [this link](http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2631482/Runner-is-a-hermaphrodite.html): "South African gold-medalist Semenya, 18, has both male and female organs, it was claimed. And sources close to the International Association of Athletics Federations — who ordered extensive tests on the teen after her amazing 800m win at the World Athletics Championships last month — say the results mean she could still be stripped of her medal. Semenya is claimed to have NO womb or ovaries — and has internal testes, the male sexual organs which produce testosterone. " ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/187 "2009-09-10T19:29:15Z")
That’s got to be a traumatic thing to learn in the newspaper. I have to ask why this wasn’t known previously. Maybe I’m missing something but If she didn’t have a womb then she wouldn’t have any menstrual cycles which should have been a tip off of a medical problem. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/188 "2009-09-10T20:01:41Z")
It’s the Sun. Don’t believe it yet. Also, female athletes tend not to have menstrual cycles. Too skinny. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/189 "2009-09-10T20:12:36Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > It’s the Sun. Don’t believe it yet. > > Also, female athletes tend not to have menstrual cycles. Too skinny. If the Sun is not trustworthy a search of Google News shows over 900 other sources reporting it. I agree with the previous poster about this being a terrible way to find out about a medical disorder. But then again the whole thing has been handled very poorly by the governing bodies, so having this story out there is not surprise. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/190 "2009-09-10T20:17:43Z")
Which female organs does she have, if not a womb/ovaries? Vagina/clitoris/etc.? Also is she really a true hermaphrodite? I thought they had to have both reproductive organs (i.e., a set of ovaries and testicles). [http://www.canada.com/South+African+sprinter+Semenya+hermaphrodite+reports/1980489/story.html](http://www.canada.com/South+African+sprinter+Semenya+hermaphrodite+reports/1980489/story.html) > [@](#): > > The sport’s governing body, which has not decided whether it will strip Semenya of her 800-metre world championship gold medal, will also advise the runner to seek immediate surgery, believing her condition poses significant health risks. Do they mean the fact that she has internal testes? I know women with AIS (which probably isn’t what she has because they’re totally unresponsive to testosterone and look very feminine) have their testes removed when the condition is discovered in case they become cancerous. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/191 "2009-09-10T20:22:27Z")
The story about the testing was only public in the first place 'cause some moron mis-faxed a document. Thumbs-up there. So far, it’s looking like Semenya is probably intersexed. If she does have some form of testes surgically removed (clearly not fully functional if they do exist, as evidenced by her low testosterone level when compared to an average 46,XY man), I’ll be very interested to see how her performance changes (or doesn’t) after she’s recovered from the surgery. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/192 "2009-09-10T20:27:22Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Which female organs does she have, if not a womb/ovaries? Vagina/clitoris/etc.? Also is she really a true hermaphrodite? I thought they had to have both reproductive organs (i.e., a set of ovaries and testicles). Among animals, hermaphrodites are ones that can act as either “male” or “female.” Historically, the term has also been applied to human beings with ambiguous genitalia etc., but the preferred term these days is intersexed. It’s [very rare](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersexuality#.22True_hermaphroditism.22) for intersexed people to have two complete sets of genitalia. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/193 "2009-09-10T20:34:48Z")
nevermind ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/194 "2009-09-10T21:06:22Z")
Here’s the question: if “she” (scare quotes purely on biological grounds) is biologically a hermaphodite, with an elevated level of testosterone (but not more than some biological women), should “she” be allowed to compete as a woman or required to compete as a man? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/195 "2009-09-10T21:13:51Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Here’s the question: if “she” (scare quotes purely on biological grounds) is biologically a hermaphodite, with an elevated level of testosterone (but not more than some biological women), should “she” be allowed to compete as a woman or required to compete as a man? Man. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2009, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/196 "2009-09-10T23:12:13Z")
[Semenya to learn fate in November: IAAF](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gSao5QJrxY4qm5EM_WD0Yq3FszFw) [QUOTE=AFP article] IAAF spokesman Nick Davies also clarified the body’s position should Semenya fail gender tests. “There should be no assumption that medals would be stripped or results changed for the obvious reason that this is not a doping case, but a medical one,” he told AFP. "If she is found to have a condition where excessive amounts of testosterone are being produced then she cannot be blamed for what happened before that fact is confirmed. “So it would be very difficult to impose a retroactive sanction on an athlete who was entered by her federation, and whose entry was accepted by the IAAF.” [/QUOTE] So it seems like she’s safe on the medal front, though I suppose she could possibly face sanctions in future competitions. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/197 "2009-09-11T02:22:19Z")
> [@Henrichek](#): > > [Semenya to learn fate in November: IAAF](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5gSao5QJrxY4qm5EM_WD0Yq3FszFw) [Although we may know what’s going on sooner:](http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/more/09/10/semenya.ap/index.html) > [@](#): > > The Australian newspaper reported in its Friday edition that medical reports on the 18-year-old Semenya indicate she has no ovaries, but rather has internal male testes, which are producing large amounts of testosterone. > > Davies said the newspaper’s report “should be treated with caution.” ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 8:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/198 "2009-09-11T08:30:33Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > …I’ll be very interested to see how her performance changes (or doesn’t) after she’s recovered from the surgery. There’ll be much less testosterone, so performance will certainly decline. However she will still retain the male body shape and with the right training regime she’ll retain the same muscle. So you’d expect a decline in performance, but not necessarily a significant one. In many respects she will be like a M-F transsexual, who a;lso routinely outperform natural female athletes. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/199 "2009-09-11T15:40:52Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > It’s the Sun. Don’t believe it yet. > > Also, female athletes tend not to have menstrual cycles. Too skinny. Yeah, but she never even started. It’s not like she started and then lost it. Plus even though they often don’t, it’s really bad for them–wouldn’t they get it checked out? Or do they just not care/just want to stay fast? ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2009, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/200 "2009-09-11T16:18:23Z")
Why would she have surgery? Maybe she likes the way she is? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088.md?page=11)