# Caster Semenya and Gender Tests in Sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088 "2009-08-20T16:19:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/221 "2009-09-17T17:38:07Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Any examples of elite athletes with PCOS? Yes, I had thought that women with PCOS tended to be overweight to obese. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/222 "2009-09-17T17:42:02Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > Where does this “she is a woman” stuff come from? > > She/he was mis-identified as female at birth, so that makes her a “woman”? Where do you get that she was misidentified? ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/223 "2009-09-17T18:21:06Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > Any examples of elite athletes with PCOS? A quick Google search turned up [this article](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/7354882.stm): > [@](#): > > Some leading female athletes have either no periods or irregular periods, normally thought to be due to tough training regimes and restricted diets. But in some cases polycystic ovary syndrome may be the cause, said Magnus Hagmar, of the Karolinska Institute. This raises male sex hormone levels and may help sufferers in sport, he said. [snip] Mr Hagmar, from the Karolinska Institute, believes that having polycystic ovaries could explain some of the menstrual disorders found in “elite athletes”. He found polycystic ovaries were much more common in athletes training for the Olympics compared with the average woman - 37% of the athletes had them, compared with one in five women in the general population. The last sentence from that quote is the most relevant to your question. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2009, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/224 "2009-09-17T23:22:21Z")
> [@](#): > > He found polycystic ovaries were much more common in athletes training for the Olympics compared with the average woman - 37% of the athletes had them, compared with one in five women in the general population. That’s notable, but too high a base incidence of PCOS and not enough correlation to make a good case for screening for this. Yet the general principle holds that the long-term health of a restricted category has a lot to do with how carefully its restrictions are enforced. If instead genetic anomalies such as have been reported for Semenya become necessary to be competitive, it will seriously damage women’s track and field. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/225 "2009-09-18T17:46:40Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > That’s notable, but too high a base incidence of PCOS and not enough correlation to make a good case for screening for this. Who’s talking about screening for it? The point is that women with PCOS have the potential to gain an advantage in \*\*exactly \*\*the same way as Semenya (more testosterone than the 46,XX baseline), but they’re \*\*specifically \*\*and \*\*explicitly \*\*recognized as being allowed to compete. From [the IAAF’s policy on gender verification](http://www.iaaf.org/mm/Document/imported/36983.pdf) ( **PDF** ), which I have previously linked here: > [@](#): > > 1. Conditions that should be allowed: [snip] > (b) Those conditions that may accord some advantages but nevertheless > acceptable: > > - Congenital adrenal hyperplasia; > - Androgen producing tumors; > - Anovulatory androgen excess (polycystic ovary syndrome). > [@](#): > > If instead genetic anomalies such as have been reported for Semenya become necessary to be competitive, it will seriously damage women’s track and field. People keep throwing out these scary possibilities of intersexed women taking over women’s events, or of non-trans men masquerading as women in order to compete without undergoing SRS or hormonal treatments, and I have yet to see **a single person** offer up any \*\*data \*\*to back up those assumptions. (Some good possibilities would be stats showing that a significant percentage of top female athletes are intersexed, that Semenya’s testosterone level is outside what an 46,XX female could display, or that at the start of the era of mandatory gender verification a significant number of female athletes “failed” the tests or mysteriously withdrew from competition.) This position therefore appears to be entirely based on fear, personal opinion, ignorance, and misunderstanding. “Fighting ignorance” is still the mission of the Straight Dope, isn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/226 "2009-09-18T17:48:08Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > First, and most importantly, Semenya identies as a woman. She is legally recognized as a woman. She also has a number of typical female features, including her external genitalia. Your question points to an incredible amount of ignorance and insensitivity about intersex and transsexual issues. > > We don’t even know for sure that the current reports are correct. Last I heard, the IAAF has not yet confirmed or denied the results. (The implication being that someone inside the organization decided that getting a fat payout from a tabloid was more important than respecting the human dignity and privacy of a teenage girl.) I think you have an amazing amount of ignorance and wishful thinking. It is IRRELEVENT what she “feels like she is”. It is IRRELEVENT what she is legally. That could very well be a MISTAKE, and if she is XY (and reports are she is), then IT IS A MISTAKE. We should ‘respect the privacy’ of a teenage girl? Well when said girl is not in fact a girl and is demanding to be recognized as one in a worldwide race, then finding out if she actually is one or not is not ‘violating her privacy’. It’s part of the protocols of a race to figure out who meets the eligibility requirements. I hate when people pontificate out of an imagined sense of moral superiority but are actually just demonstrating their own saccharine ridiculousness. She’s more XX than XY? How do you know? She has ‘external female genitalia’? How do you know? She has male genitalia that weren’t completely formed, maybe. She is technically male although one with a genetic defect. I like the “she has a number of female characteristics”? Really? And a number of male ones. How do you weigh the difference? You just weigh on it ‘sensitivity’? The most ‘sensitive’ thing is to let her run as a female? I think that’s an assinine and ridiculous way to do things. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/227 "2009-09-18T19:47:26Z")
I think your entire post was an overwhelming display of ignorance of the current legal status of intersexed and transsexual people in the U.S. and many other countries, the current regulations for the highest levels of international athletic competition, and human biology. There are many resources linked in this thread that already demonstrate how misinformed you are; I can only assume that you remain willfully ignorant and, as such, I will not waste my time repeating what has already been said and what is readily researchable to anyone with an Internet connection or access to a public library. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/228 "2009-09-18T20:59:10Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > The point is that women with PCOS have the potential to gain an advantage in \*\*exactly \*\*the same way as Semenya (more testosterone than the 46,XX baseline), but they’re \*\*specifically \*\*and \*\*explicitly \*\*recognized as being allowed to compete. This is likely due in no small part to the fact that PCOS is common whereas Semenya’s situation is very rare. If it were possible to show that Semenya’s condition couldn’t ever result in testosterone levels higher than with PCOS, that would make a good case for including her condition among those that are exempted. But it would probably be quite challenging to show that. > [@](#): > > People keep throwing out these scary possibilities of intersexed women taking over women’s events… Note that it doesn’t have to be anomalous cases “taking over” - even a single one calls fairness into question. Indeed, that’s what happened in Semenya’s case: a number of her competitors felt (apparently based on her appearance) that it was likely she didn’t comply. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2009, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/229 "2009-09-18T21:23:04Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I think your entire post was an overwhelming display of ignorance of the current legal status of intersexed and transsexual people in the U.S. and many other countries, the current regulations for the highest levels of international athletic competition, and human biology. > > There are many resources linked in this thread that already demonstrate how misinformed you are; I can only assume that you remain willfully ignorant and, as such, I will not waste my time repeating what has already been said and what is readily researchable to anyone with an Internet connection or access to a public library. You’re by definition ignorant. Why is there a debate about her at all if you’re so right? Why don’t you give you expertise to the athletic committee investigatnig this MALE and tell them that “she’s female on her birth certificate”. I’m sure that’ll win them over. ---
**Author:** ![Waenara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/50afbb/32.png) [@Waenara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waenara)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/230 "2009-09-19T01:01:51Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > It is IRRELEVENT what she “feels like she is”. It is IRRELEVENT what she is legally. That could very well be a MISTAKE, and if she is XY (and reports are she is), then IT IS A MISTAKE. Could you please provide a link to reports that say she has XY chromosomes? Just curious, because I’ve been following this story with Google News alerts every day, and I’ve only seen _unconfirmed_ reports that she has internal testes, and I haven’t seen any reports that claim to know her chromosomal status (just people speculating, but no news from official sources or leaks). ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/231 "2009-09-19T02:19:22Z")
That’s what I’ve been asking. Accepting the internal testes story as genuine, how do we know about the XY chromosomes? Given the variety of intersex conditions out there, about which I know nothing, I’m not going to assume she has XY chromosomes without proof. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/232 "2009-09-19T18:47:27Z")
My understanding is that it’s unheard of to have XX and have no ovaries and testes. There is an easy explanation for an XY with internal testes and external “female looking” genitalia, partial AIS. The comparison of partial AIS to PCOS is absolutely ludicrous and demonstrates how ignorant that poster is. Females w/ PCOS are females who go through puberty as such, widening their hips, depositing fat, etc. They later develop cysts which raise their testosterone slightly. They do not have high testosterone during puberty. Semenya went through puberty with very little estrogen (as “she” has no ovaries); thus the narrow hips and muscular build. She has never had the estrogen of a pubescent female. She HAS had a rush of testosterone during puberty (although not as much as a male without the AIS condition). The narrow hips alone result in a huge advantage. The two conditions aren’t comparable in the slightest. The only way they’re even similar NOW is that they both currently have higher testosterone than most females…with Semenya’s being half way between male and female. “But she was raised as a female! She played with dolls!”. Clueless. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2009, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/233 "2009-09-19T22:12:52Z")
I’ve seen reports that Semenya has testosterone levels three times female normal… but the average man has a testosterone level _ten_ times the female normal. IF true that means Semenya’s testosterone is _not_ “halfway between male and female” but actually significantly closer to female. Part of the problem is that people really, really do get bent out of shape when it comes to intersex issues. There seems to be a deep seated desire to make gender very either-or, then along comes someone who is truly intermediate and some folks just can’t get past trying to hammer than person into either the round hole or the square one without understanding that some pegs \*really are \* hexagonal. Or whatever shape that doesn’t fit the normal two choices. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/234 "2009-09-20T00:57:15Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > I’ve seen reports that Semenya has testosterone levels three times female normal… but the average man has a testosterone level _ten_ times the female normal. IF true that means Semenya’s testosterone is _not_ “halfway between male and female” but actually significantly closer to female. > > Part of the problem is that people really, really do get bent out of shape when it comes to intersex issues. There seems to be a deep seated desire to make gender very either-or, then along comes someone who is truly intermediate and some folks just can’t get past trying to hammer than person into either the round hole or the square one without understanding that some pegs \*really are \* hexagonal. Or whatever shape that doesn’t fit the normal two choices. Well the way running is, you need to be either in the male or female category. So that’s why it NEEDS to be black and white although intersex is by definition not. I’m just responding to the “she’s a female with some congenital abnormalities, no biggee” attitude. “It’s kind of like PCOS, and that’s not a deal breaker, and besides, “she” was raised as a female, so that’s that”. I think that’s nonsense and totally unfair to the female competitors. To women competing with “her” it IS a big deal. She has a huge advantage. She may be “closer” to the average female’s testosterone, but it’s not like the rules say that intersexed people should go to where their testosterone level is closest. You don’t have a god given right to be put into one of the buckets you are “closest” to. Ultimately it’s up to the sport as to what their definition of “female” includes or excludes, but the idea that she should be considered female because that’s what it says on her birth certificate is, IMO, ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/235 "2009-09-20T01:08:25Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > She may be “closer” to the average female’s testosterone, but it’s not like the rules say that intersexed people should go to where their testosterone level is closest. You don’t have a god given right to be put into one of the buckets you are “closest” to. Why not? It seems a fairly logical test. Certainly more logical than saying “even though your body looks and functions (aside from fertility) like a normal woman’s, you’re actually a man because you have a Y chromosome” or saying “Nevermind you have a functional penis and even naked everyone around you says you’re clearly male, you have two X chromosomes, one with an extra gene that happens to be SRY, so you’re really a woman”. There probably are people who can’t fairly be put into one category or the other, but we don’t know (yet) if Semenya is one of those or not. If she is not, then putting her into the category her own body is closest to makes some sense. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/236 "2009-09-20T02:05:33Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Why not? It seems a fairly logical test. Certainly more logical than saying “even though your body looks and functions (aside from fertility) like a normal woman’s, you’re actually a man because you have a Y chromosome” or saying “Nevermind you have a functional penis and even naked everyone around you says you’re clearly male, you have two X chromosomes, one with an extra gene that happens to be SRY, so you’re really a woman”. > > There probably are people who can’t fairly be put into one category or the other, but we don’t know (yet) if Semenya is one of those or not. If she is not, then putting her into the category her own body is closest to makes some sense. Well because the difference between men and women is so vast in athletics that being 1/2 way between and not having gone through the high levels of estrogen of females in pubert is giving “her” a huge advantage in a race. The other women aren’t in favor of that. It’s not fair to them. Her body doesn’t look and function like a normal woman’s. Actually I’m not sure what you mean by “functions” like a woman’s. In what way does her body function more like woman’s than a man’s? She has no breasts, no period, no ovaries, probably not an external penis, but is that significant? I don’t know what category they’ll put her in, it’s their rules and I don’t know if they even know what they are in cases like this. She has a huge advantage though, I don’t think it’s arguable. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/237 "2009-09-20T04:07:01Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > Well because the difference between men and women is so vast in athletics that being 1/2 way between and not having gone through the high levels of estrogen of females in pubert is giving “her” a huge advantage in a race. The other women aren’t in favor of that. It’s not fair to them. OK, one more time - we don’t _know_ if she’s “halfway between” or not. All we have is rumor and leaks. One of those rumors is that she has elevated testosterone but is _still_ closer to the female norm than the male norm (three times female baseline for Semenya vs. ten times female baseline for the male norm) and I honestly haven’t a clue if there are XX women who, due to some medical condition or other, don’t have an _even higher_ testosterone level than that. > [@](#): > > Her body doesn’t look and function like a normal woman’s. Actually I’m not sure what you mean by “functions” like a woman’s. In what way does her body function more like woman’s than a man’s? She has no breasts, no period, no ovaries, probably not an external penis, but is that significant? She actually _does_ have some breast development, just not a lot of it. From what I gather (keeping in mind I’m working from unconfirmed information) she does not have a penis _at all_, and she _probably_ has an actual vagina even if she doesn’t have uterus or ovaries, that is _probably_ completely capable of functioning like any other vagina during sexual intercourse. In fact, unless you had a speculum and a flashlight and where hunting for her cervix likely you would have _no way_ of knowing, from looking at her genitals, that there was anything abnormal about her. So, as far as sexual intercourse is concerned she’s all woman. You wouldn’t find that significant? Or did you just assume she was like a barbie doll “down there”? If she wasn’t training as an elite athlete she’d probably have a level of bodyfat pretty similar to her female relatives and a lot more curves, which would feminize her appearance. > [@](#): > > I don’t know what category they’ll put her in, it’s their rules and I don’t know if they even know what they are in cases like this. She has a huge advantage though, I don’t think it’s arguable. Well, we don’t know that it’s a “huge” advantage - there might well be some XX female sprinter out there with an adrenal disorder churning an even higher level of androgens than what Semenya has. You’d think Lance Armstrong losing his testicles to cancer would put him as a huge DISadvantage in sports but apparently not. There’s more to winning medals than _just_ biology, even if biology plays an important role. Fact is, I’m not arrogant enough to think I can make such a decision about a person who’s medical information I don’t have access to, and without being a medically educated professional. Caster Semenya is a complicated case, that’s why the decision wasn’t instant in her case. I don’t know how this will be settled, but I hope the people making the decision do base it on facts rather than prejudice. I’m just trying to keep an open mind about a situation where I don’t have all the facts. ALL elite female track athletes are more masculine than the female norm. For example, [this picture of Florence Griffith-Joyner](http://brotherpeacemaker.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/florence-griffith-joyner-1.jpg) shows muscle development greater than many typical men, yet her gender was never questioned. [This cover of _Sports Illustrated_](http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1992/0722_large.jpg) shows Jackie Joyner-Kersee (Flo Jo’s sister-in-law), another elite female athlete whose gender has never been questioned, without much of a bustline. ALL female athletes at that level will have relatively low body fat and significant muscle development in excess of normal women. Combine that with a square jaw and a non-femine hairstyle and yes, they’re going to look “mannish”. Flo-Jo and Jackie Joyner-Kersee, though, tended to much more traditionally feminine hairstyles and dress than Semenya does, which I’m sure also affects how people view them. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/238 "2009-09-20T04:27:11Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > OK, one more time - we don’t _know_ if she’s “halfway between” or not. All we have is rumor and leaks. One of those rumors is that she has elevated testosterone but is _still_ closer to the female norm than the male norm (three times female baseline for Semenya vs. ten times female baseline for the male norm) and I honestly haven’t a clue if there are XX women who, due to some medical condition or other, don’t have an _even higher_ testosterone level than that. > She actually _does_ have some breast development, just not a lot of it. From what I gather (keeping in mind I’m working from unconfirmed information) she does not have a penis _at all_, and she _probably_ has an actual vagina even if she doesn’t have uterus or ovaries, that is _probably_ completely capable of functioning like any other vagina during sexual intercourse. In fact, unless you had a speculum and a flashlight and where hunting for her cervix likely you would have _no way_ of knowing, from looking at her genitals, that there was anything abnormal about her. So, as far as sexual intercourse is concerned she’s all woman. You wouldn’t find that significant? Or did you just assume she was like a barbie doll “down there”? If she wasn’t training as an elite athlete she’d probably have a level of bodyfat pretty similar to her female relatives and a lot more curves, which would feminize her appearance. > Well, we don’t know that it’s a “huge” advantage - there might well be some XX female sprinter out there with an adrenal disorder churning an even higher level of androgens than what Semenya has. You’d think Lance Armstrong losing his testicles to cancer would put him as a huge DISadvantage in sports but apparently not. There’s more to winning medals than _just_ biology, even if biology plays an important role. Fact is, I’m not arrogant enough to think I can make such a decision about a person who’s medical information I don’t have access to, and without being a medically educated professional. > > Caster Semenya is a complicated case, that’s why the decision wasn’t instant in her case. I don’t know how this will be settled, but I hope the people making the decision do base it on facts rather than prejudice. I’m just trying to keep an open mind about a situation where I don’t have all the facts. > > ALL elite female track athletes are more masculine than the female norm. For example, [this picture of Florence Griffith-Joyner](http://brotherpeacemaker.files.wordpress.com/2009/08/florence-griffith-joyner-1.jpg) shows muscle development greater than many typical men, yet her gender was never questioned. [This cover of _Sports Illustrated_](http://i.cdn.turner.com/sivault/si_online/covers/images/1992/0722_large.jpg) shows Jackie Joyner-Kersee (Flo Jo’s sister-in-law), another elite female athlete whose gender has never been questioned, without much of a bustline. ALL female athletes at that level will have relatively low body fat and significant muscle development in excess of normal women. Combine that with a square jaw and a non-femine hairstyle and yes, they’re going to look “mannish”. Flo-Jo and Jackie Joyner-Kersee, though, tended to much more traditionally feminine hairstyles and dress than Semenya does, which I’m sure also affects how people view them. WTF? You very condescendingly give me a “one more time, we don’t have all the facts”. No, shit, we don’t have all the facts, I’m commenting on what has been leaked because it is so entirely plausible. So you give me a “one more time, we don’t know”, then get into speculatin of what her ‘penis’ or lack thereof and vagina look like? LOL, too much. Did I assume she was “like a Barbie doll down there”? I assumed nothing, you condescenging twit. She has “normal intercourse”, LOL JFC, how do YOU know? “One more time”, indeed. Would I find that relevent? Of course I would not find that at all relevent. It’s ridiculous. Now we’re deciding who should be considered male or female by how “normal their intercourse is” (which is speculation on your part)…that is just too much. Do you not see the ridiculousness in this? Do you think that goes into their decision? What kind of creep are you? She has “normal female genitalia”? How DO YOU KNOW? She is a male with partial AIS has incomplete male sexual development from reports. That does not imply that her female genitalia are “normal”, not that it even matters. Lance Armstrong lost ONE testicle to cancer. And the other is more than capable of making enough testosterone for the both of them. Have at least a CLUE of what you are talking about. Yeah, he has no testicles at all. Jesus. The other idiocy of your post…both of those women went through puberty as females, not intersexed males, it’s a huge difference. It has nothing to do with hairstyles. Go tell Lance Armstrong that you’re really proud of him for having won the TDF with no testicles. Ask him if he has “normal intercourse” too. LOL. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 2009, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/239 "2009-09-20T16:46:35Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > She has “normal female genitalia”? How DO YOU KNOW? She is a male with partial AIS has incomplete male sexual development from reports. That does not imply that her female genitalia are “normal”, not that it even matters. People with AIS can have everything from an undersized but apparently normal penis to yes, a vagina with no penis whatsoever. Given that she has been considered female since birth I think it’s reasonable assume her external genitals look female i.e. she has an innie not an outie. > [@](#): > > Lance Armstrong lost ONE testicle to cancer. And the other is more than capable of making enough testosterone for the both of them. While both testicles may not have been removed cancer treatment frequently screws up the functioning of the remaining one. He is capable of fathering children only because he banked sperm prior to his cancer treatment. Lack of testosterone can be remedied easily these days, it’s no big deal. > [@](#): > > The other idiocy of your post…both of those women went through puberty as females, not intersexed males, it’s a huge difference. Even with a Y chromosome, if Semenya has severe enough AIS it would be accurate to say she went through puberty as an intersexed female. IF Semenya has AIS then a lot hinges on just how severe that insensitivity actually is. Women with complete AIS may, in fact, have testosterone levels in the normal male range but _don’t react to testosterone at all_ meaning that in appearance and function they are, if anything, more feminine than most women. Testosterone levels _alone_ are not he sole determining factor here, it’s also how well her body can utilize those hormones. > [@](#): > > Go tell Lance Armstrong that you’re really proud of him for having won the TDF with no testicles. If a man with no testicles (or no functioning testicles) can win the TDF so what? He’d be a fantastic athlete regardless. Cripes, it’s not like a man pedals a bike with his balls! Defensive much? ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2009, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/240 "2009-09-21T14:23:13Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > I assumed nothing, you condescenging twit […] What kind of creep are you? . [Moderator Hat ON] **bri1600bv** , personal insults are not allowed in this forum. Cool it. [Moderator Hat OFF] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088.md?page=13)