# Caster Semenya and Gender Tests in Sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088 "2009-08-20T16:19:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Zsofia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/7bcc69/32.png) [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/61 "2009-08-21T16:00:57Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I said this once before, but I guess it will take at least two tries to sink in. She ran very fast for a woman, but she is still 10 seconds behind the male competitors in this race. She has zero chance of successfully competing on an elite level with men. You’re just allowing cultural expectations of gender to influence you. Women do well in ultramarathons and, like, long distance cold water swimming. And pool. And shooting sports, I think. The point is, why on earth is somebody calling me a throwback to Betty Draper and crinolines because I admit that, yes, men are generally stronger and faster than women? Geez, how stupid have we gotten? (Well, I guess, how stupid have _some of us_ gotten?) ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/62 "2009-08-21T16:03:10Z")
You’d think people would _want_ women with androgen insensitivity syndrome competing in sports like track and hurdles, if only to eliminate the risk of their uteruses falling out. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/63 "2009-08-21T16:09:06Z")
Who says there isn’t anything out of the ordinary? As uncomfortable as it is to say, my understanding is that she really looks and sounds like a man. She comes out of nowhere to run the best 800m time in the world (for a woman), there are going to be questions. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/64 "2009-08-21T16:11:06Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Her performance wasn’t male equalling. She’s 10 seconds behind the top male runners. And lets be honest here. No one is questioning her womanhood because she ran fast. They are questioning it because she looks like a man and has a deep voice. Why would you expect her to be the equal of the top male runners as evidence that she may indeed be male? I bet her performance would place her well within male norms if not better for her age. ---
**Author:** ![Shot\_From\_Guns](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ccd318/32.png) [@Shot\_From\_Guns](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shot_From_Guns)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/65 "2009-08-21T16:11:30Z")
> [@treis](#): > > The point of a women’s division is to allow people with a specific genetic disadvantage to compete on a level playing field. If you don’t possess that specific genetic disadvantage than you are ineligible to compete in that division. There is no rule against competing with big feet or a long torso. If there were say a sub size 13 foot division, then yes, Phelps would not be allowed to compete in that division. I’m going to pause here for a minute to laugh at how telling your qualification of being 46,XX vs. 46,XY as a “genetic disadvantage” is. (Hint: It has to do with the assumption of maleness as the default or norm, and femaleness as something that deviates from it.) You say that you wouldn’t want Semenya competing against other women if she turns out to not be 46,XX. However, if she’s not an average 46,XY (which she almost certainly isn’t, or she’d know it), she will also be at a huge disadvantage when competing in men’s sports. She might have some edge against average 46,XX women, but not more of one than is given by other genetic abnormalities such as those displayed by the incredibly successful Phelps. > [@](#): > > It isn’t what a woman “should” look like, sound like, or achieve. It is what woman “do” look like, sound like, or achieve. Semenya is well out of the bounds for all three of these, which is why her sex is being questioned. So, every time a woman sets a new world record, we should subject her to gender verification? After all, she’s performing better than any other woman has ever done! And, gee, even if she’s phenotypically typical for a woman, those could be breast implants! You don’t know!! > [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > You’d think people would _want_ women with androgen insensitivity syndrome competing in sports like track and hurdles, if only to eliminate the risk of their uteruses falling out. The \*\*real \*\*problem is when they crawl up and strangle us. It gets us all crazy-emotional. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/66 "2009-08-21T16:22:29Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Are you really this dense? What is ordinary for a good male athlete is beyond extraordinary for any female athlete. Sweetie, [women have been running the 800m](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/800m) at around 1:55 _for decades_. Women: good for more than just cookin’ and makin’ babies! ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/67 "2009-08-21T16:26:58Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Women: good for more than just cookin’ and makin’ babies! Cite? _d&r_ ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/68 "2009-08-21T16:30:17Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > So, every time a woman sets a new world record, we should subject her to gender verification? After all, she’s performing better than any other woman has ever done! And, gee, even if she’s phenotypically typical for a woman, those could be breast implants! You don’t know!! (snip) You take hyperbole to an entirely new level. It is not the performance, or the appearance, or the obscurity of her, it is the _combination_ of all three. Any one or even two on their own would be a bit :dubious:, probably resulting in a call for drug testing. All three in one athlete raises some serious alarm bells. If in fact she is just a rare, extremely masculine woman then good for her for adding a new definition to the image of womanhood. If she is intersexed, or something else, then it is worth knowing so that her achievements can be ranked properly. If she is a male transsexual, It is worth knowing so that her record does not make a mockery of every other female athlete out there. Anyone with eyes can see that she is dramatically physically different from all the other female athletes. That hardly makes us chauvinistic, unenlightened, or whatever when we make mention of it. Odd that we have no problem identifying the other women runners as such, and many of them are quite masculine in shape due to their efforts in training. ---
**Author:** ![Henrichek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/5daacb/32.png) [@Henrichek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Henrichek)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/69 "2009-08-21T16:34:43Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > [..] genetic abnormalities such as those displayed by the incredibly successful Phelps. Is he known to have any specific abnormalities? I thought he just had the best suit. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/70 "2009-08-21T16:35:18Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Sweetie, [women have been running the 800m](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/800m) at around 1:55 _for decades_. Women: good for more than just cookin’ and makin’ babies! Your posts don’t make sense though. He didn’t say what she is doing (as a woman) is not extraordinary. It IS for a woman. It’s NOT for a man. That’s WHY people want to test her(him) or whatever it is. The WOMEN she is competing with are most likely the strongest advocates of her being tested. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/71 "2009-08-21T16:35:42Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Sweetie, [women have been running the 800m](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/800m) at around 1:55 _for decades_. Women: good for more than just cookin’ and makin’ babies! Did you look at your own link? Did you look at the records tables? The fastest women’s times don’t even come close to the slowest men’s times. This will be the case at any level. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/72 "2009-08-21T16:36:17Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Sweetie, [women have been running the 800m](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/800m) at around 1:55 _for decades_. Women: good for more than just cookin’ and makin’ babies! And the men have been doing it in 1:41. In running ten seconds is a **HUGE** difference. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/73 "2009-08-21T16:38:57Z")
> [@Acid\_Lamp](#): > > And the men have been doing it in 1:41. In running ten seconds is a **HUGE** difference. Which is why I am so very confused that all of you are demanding genetic testing for a perfectly ordinary result. Do enlighten me, will you? ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/74 "2009-08-21T16:41:00Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I’m going to pause here for a minute to laugh at how telling your qualification of being 46,XX vs. 46,XY as a “genetic disadvantage” is. (Hint: It has to do with the assumption of maleness as the default or norm, and femaleness as something that deviates from it.) > The \*\*real \*\*problem is when they crawl up and strangle us. It gets us all crazy-emotional. I think you’re projecting your own emotions into a very logical debate. He isn’t saying anything about male being normal and female being abnormal. Competitions are segregated male/female because otherwise women wouldn’t stand a chance in almost all of them. They wouldn’t come close to placing. So a “genetic disadvantage”…yes FOR COMPETING IN CERTAIN SPORTS being female is a disadvantage. Do you not agree with that? He’s not saying that as a general morally/genetically inferior in general. If this is not the case (and how could you think that it is not?), then why have divisions at all? Why not let everyone compete for everything…no sex distinction at all? DUH, BECAUSE XXs WOULDN’T WANT IT THAT WAY! They wouldn’t be able to compete in almost all sports. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/75 "2009-08-21T16:42:02Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Which is why I am so very confused that all of you are demanding genetic testing for a perfectly ordinary result. Do enlighten me, will you? You cannot be that dense. It’s an ORDINARY result. FOR A MAN. It’s not for a woman. She says she’s a woman. Thus, if true, it’s EXTRAORDINARY. Logic not your strongsuit? ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/76 "2009-08-21T16:50:58Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Which is why I am so very confused that all of you are demanding genetic testing for a perfectly ordinary result. Do enlighten me, will you? I did above, but apparently I’ll have to say it again for you. I don’t take issue with her time. I take issue with the _combination_ of her time, appearance, and obscurity. If she looked even remotely like other female runners, i’d still call for some drug testing due to the time (which is damn near phenomenal for a woman) and her lack of record. Since she ALSO has a very unusual and masculine physical appearance I fail to see how it would be unreasonable to ensure that she is truly female before bestowing accolades on a bright new star. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/77 "2009-08-21T16:51:22Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > You cannot be that dense. > > It’s an ORDINARY result. FOR A MAN. It’s not for a woman. She says she’s a woman. Thus, if true, it’s EXTRAORDINARY. > > Logic not your strongsuit? A couple things: First, I suspect I am much more an accomplished logician than you. In particular, I know that the objection you’ve raised actually has nothing to do with logic (which studies semantic entailment models and combinatorial syntactical rules–not, as you seem to misapprehended it, a generalized “dispassionate” analytical cast of mind, or Christ, being a cataloger of “fallacies”). I think what you mean to say is “critical thinking.” And there is a fair bit of irony in this fact since I’m the one bringing the critical theory and you’re the one who’s resorting to “this is my understanding of sex differences, or at least what I know about it from the Discovery Channel.” But perhaps more important than your fatuous misunderstanding of what logic is, is your inattention to the factual record. Perhaps while you were busy symbolizing propositions and syllogisms and watching _Mythbusters_ you overlooked the fact that I provided a citation that Caster Semanya is running the event in the same narrow neighborhood of top times that women have been posting since the mid-1970s. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/78 "2009-08-21T16:52:58Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Which is why I am so very confused that all of you are demanding genetic testing for a perfectly ordinary result. Do enlighten me, will you? It’s because she looks like a dude, and is competing in a sport that is supposed to be only for chicks. [sub]I’m sort of hoping the casual approach works[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/79 "2009-08-21T16:59:05Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > Really? Anyone can claim to be any gender they like and that claim is accepted at face value no matter what? > > That seems desperate for abuse. The rules is designed so people who have undergone SRS and hormone therapy can compete in their preferred gender. It’s not a face-value kind of thing. I couldn’t claim to be female while I still have Pinky the Monster in my pants and I would have to undergo hormone therapy that would nullify a lot of my masculine advantages. There is a cyclist who has been competing as a woman for awhile. Due to hormone therapy she no longer has the performance benefits that lots of testosterone would provide. I wonder if rather than a “gender test” there should be parameters for testosterone levels or something. So no “male” or “female”, but something more like “Class A”, “Class B”, “Class C” etc. with ranges like " Class A: hormone levels not exceeding X", “Class B: hormone levels ranging X-Y”, and “Class C: levels ranging Y-obvious steroid abuse”. I suppose that isn’t realistically applicable in the rea world though. ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/80 "2009-08-21T17:03:11Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Except, of course, Caster Semanya, the subject of this very debate. Which is why the accusations of sex-deception are being floated, because then you won’t be able to make pronouncements like “women just biologically cannot compete with men; so-called women who do must be some sort of genetic, non-woman anomaly.” You’re horrible at logic, critical thinking whatever you want to call it. If Semanya is not running an unusually fast woman’s time, you should say that and only that. Instead you criticize his statement that women can’t compete with men by posting the above…that she CAN compete with men and that sex-deception allegations are floated because if not, then "you won’t be able to make pronouncements like “women just biologically cannot compete with men; so-called women who do must be some sort of genetic, non-woman anomaly.” So you make no sense. If Semanya is running ordinary times for a woman but well behind men, then he STILL WILL BE ABLE TO SAY WHAT HE SAID. If Semanya is a woman she will not accomplish what you desire, to refute his claim that women can’t compete with men. Semanya would be useless for establishing that women can biologically compete with men. According to you. So that would NOT be the reason he wants her tested. IF he even does at all. Most likely the WOMEN are the ones who want her tested. So you make no sense, sorry. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088.md?page=5)