# Caster Semenya and Gender Tests in Sports **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 20, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088 "2009-08-20T16:19:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Sinaijon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dc4da7/32.png) [@Sinaijon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaijon)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/81 "2009-08-21T17:05:32Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > you overlooked the fact that I provided a citation that Caster Semanya is running the event in the same narrow neighborhood of top times that women have been posting since the mid-1970s. It doesn’t matter how long woman have been running those times. What is important is that only a _very_ small portion of women are able to run those times. Only 30 women, ever, in the entire history of the world, have ever run equivalent times. The level of training required for a woman to achieve this is incredible. Far beyond what an average woman could do. The women capable of doing so belong to a very exclusive club. High school men, other the hand, **routeinely** run those same times. They are nothing special. They probably go to college and drink beer and get fat. When people ask about their achievements in life at a party, they don’t even bother listing their 800m times, because it’s _nothing_. It’s _common place_. If they did mention, they’d probably get mocked by someone else at the party who ran a faster time. ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/82 "2009-08-21T17:07:54Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > I’m going to pause here for a minute to laugh at how telling your qualification of being 46,XX vs. 46,XY as a “genetic disadvantage” is. (Hint: It has to do with the assumption of maleness as the default or norm, and femaleness as something that deviates from it.) No, that’s your bullshit spin on it. I use “genetic disadvantage” because being female is a disadvantage compared to being male in terms of athletic competition. Is has nothing to do with the assumption of maleness being the default or norm. It has everything to do with males being bigger, faster, and stronger than females. > [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > You say that you wouldn’t want Semenya competing against other women if she turns out to not be 46,XX. However, if she’s not an average 46,XY (which she almost certainly isn’t, or she’d know it), she will also be at a huge disadvantage when competing in men’s sports. She might have some edge against average 46,XX women, but not more of one than is given by other genetic abnormalities such as those displayed by the incredibly successful Phelps. Again, the point is that her genetic advantages are the ones that women’s divisions are specifically designed to eliminate. That’s why people object to it. > [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Which is why I am so very confused that all of you are demanding genetic testing for a perfectly ordinary result. Do enlighten me, will you? Jeez you aren’t very good at picking up things the first time: > [@treis](#): > > No one is questioning her womanhood because she ran fast. They are questioning it because she looks like a man and has a deep voice. Do I need to write something twice from now on for you to pick up on it? Do I need to write something twice from now on for you to pick up on it? ---
**Author:** ![bri1600bv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9fc29f/32.png) [@bri1600bv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bri1600bv)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/83 "2009-08-21T17:08:49Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > A couple things: > > First, I suspect I am much more an accomplished logician than you. In particular, I know that the objection you’ve raised actually has nothing to do with logic (which studies semantic entailment models and combinatorial syntactical rules–not, as you seem to misapprehended it, a generalized “dispassionate” analytical cast of mind, or Christ, being a cataloger of “fallacies”). I think what you mean to say is “critical thinking.” And there is a fair bit of irony in this fact since I’m the one bringing the critical theory and you’re the one who’s resorting to “this is my understanding of sex differences, or at least what I know about it from the Discovery Channel.” > > But perhaps more important than your fatuous misunderstanding of what logic is, is your inattention to the factual record. Perhaps while you were busy symbolizing propositions and syllogisms and watching _Mythbusters_ you overlooked the fact that I provided a citation that Caster Semanya is running the event in the same narrow neighborhood of top times that women have been posting since the mid-1970s. Fatuous and inane in additional to lacking critical thinking. I didn’t say anything about sex differences from the Discovery Channel or anywhere else. YOu said men wanted her tested because if she is a woman she will refute the claim that women cannot biologically compete with men. Now you say she is running times of average top women. But those top women times are well behind men’s times. So this means she does not disprove his statement that women cannot biologically compete with men. As for what constitutes a woman for the purposes of a “woman’s race”, I couldn’t care less and wouldn’t know how to adjudicate such a thing. I wouldn’t pretend to and wouldn’t want to. It’s not my dog in the fight. I’m not racing against her…I don’t care. I guarantee she’s faster than me and it doesn’t bother me a bit. Even the slowest women in the race she ran are faster than me…does that make you feel better? ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/84 "2009-08-21T17:18:22Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Michael Phelps has [a bunch of interesting quirks to his physiology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_phelps#Physique_and_training) that make him an especially good swimmer–do you want to strip him of his medals and records and ban him from competing again because he had an advantage against people who don’t have the same physical makeup as him? A buddy of mine has Marfan’s Syndrome (as I understand it, it’s a connective tissue abnormality of some kind). A common quirk of the disorder is that in addition to being over 7’ tall, his body can pack on muscle mass like _crazy_. He was lifting weights for awhile to train for an ice climbing trip and the circumference of his thighs ended up being the same as his waist (this I know because I went shopping with him to try and find a climbing harness that would accommodate his thunder thighs). He never participated in competitive events, but I did sometimes wonder how it ever would have been dealt with. He is at a much, much higher risk of life threatening events such as aneurysms and aortic… uh… that thing that killed John Ritter. (He is at a fairly high risk of dying young. ☹ ) And the connective tissues disorder has done nasty things to him like: a foot cramp=dislocated toe. But when he was in his 20s and was healthy and in great shape, his training did benefit from some of the features of his disorder. With the same training regimen, he’d gain way more muscle mass than I ever would have been able to. There’s no way I could keep up. He put on muscle as if he was taking steroids, but he wasn’t. I always wondered what would have happened if he’d started competing in something that allowed him to take advantage of that. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/85 "2009-08-21T18:32:37Z")
> [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](#): > > He is at a much, much higher risk of life threatening events such as aneurysms and aortic… uh… that thing that killed John Ritter. Aneurysm. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/86 "2009-08-21T18:42:07Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > I didn’t say anything about sex differences from the Discovery Channel or anywhere else. > > YOu said men wanted her tested because if she is a woman she will refute the claim that women cannot biologically compete with men. > > Now you say she is running times of average top women. But those top women times are well behind men’s times. So this means she does not disprove his statement that women cannot biologically compete with men. Right. You have prevailed that point upon me. Now I want to know why you think a runner who purports to be a woman and who achieves an excellent–but by no means unheard off–800m race result needs to be genetically tested to determine her sex. And I will require specific, articulable facts beyond “she looks like a dude.” After all, she has the body of any elite female sprinter. What were you expecting? The curvaceous body of a Titian nude? I will tell you why you say “she looks like a dude.” It is because her athleticism challenges your equivalence of the male-female and stronger-weaker dichotomies. She looks like a dude to you _only because_ she looks like a world-class athlete. Allegations of non-womanhood, whether they’re your workaday accusations of lesbianism or more rococo genetic speculations, are par for the course in women’s athletics because some people can’t get their minds around the possibility that maybe women aren’t at such insurmountable disadvantages. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/87 "2009-08-21T18:45:29Z")
> [@bri1600bv](#): > > You cannot be that dense. > > It’s an ORDINARY result. FOR A MAN. It’s not for a woman. She says she’s a woman. Thus, if true, it’s EXTRAORDINARY. > > Logic not your strongsuit? I see the logic. The speed in question 1:56.72. The 10th fasted women’s record is 1:55.27 or over a second faster. Not only is she not close to the men’s category of competition she is 3.44 seconds slower than the fastest women’s time and nowhere near the top 10. It’s not logical to say she is competing on a men’s level (which is 12 seconds faster) when she is over 3 seconds slower than the fastest female time. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/88 "2009-08-21T18:46:33Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > Something about the idea of forcing an athlete (always female, never male) to submit to a humiliating barrage of tests to prove that she fits society’s binary idea of male/female, and then stripping her of the honors she worked so hard to achieve if she doesn’t, really makes me angry. So then you think only transexuals should compete in women’s sports? Because that’s what would be the likely result. > [@](#): > > How do other people feel about gender verification tests for gender-segretated sports? Any difference between “in general” and this specific instance? If she’s a transexual then she has an unfair advantage no? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/89 "2009-08-21T18:49:14Z")
> [@Shot\_From\_Guns](#): > > But chances are, if something does come up on the test, she’s not going to be a flat-out, “normal” XY man. She’ll probably be intersexed. So, she might get an unfair advantage competing in women’s sports, but she’d be at an unfair disadvantage in men’s sports. > > Michael Phelps has [a bunch of interesting quirks to his physiology](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_phelps#Physique_and_training) that make him an especially good swimmer–do you want to strip him of his medals and records and ban him from competing again because he had an advantage against people who don’t have the same physical makeup as him? But isn’t that the final conclusion of equality thinking? All competition becomes silly because ultimately we are all unique genetic specimens and for some people they have a distinct advantage over everyone else in that sport because of it. Maybe some people are predisposed genetically to working hard, so should we really value discipline? ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/90 "2009-08-21T19:10:47Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Right. You have prevailed that point upon me. Now I want to know why you think a runner who purports to be a woman and who achieves an excellent–but by no means unheard off–800m race result needs to be genetically tested to determine her sex. And I will require specific, articulable facts beyond “she looks like a dude.” After all, she has the body of any elite female sprinter. What were you expecting? The curvaceous body of a Titian nude? Why is she looks like a dude not a good enough answer? if i showed up to run in a female race the fact like i look like a dude would be reason enough to demand a test from me. > [@](#): > > I will tell you why you say “she looks like a dude.” It is because her athleticism challenges your equivalence of the male-female and stronger-weaker dichotomies. She looks like a dude to you _only because_ she looks like a world-class athlete. Allegations of non-womanhood, whether they’re your workaday accusations of lesbianism or more rococo genetic speculations, are par for the course in women’s athletics because some people can’t get their minds around the possibility that maybe women aren’t at such insurmountable disadvantages. And yet none of the other runners look like dudes, funny that. Most female runners have incredibly athletic bodies and would never be confused with men. ---
**Author:** ![Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@Swallowed\_My\_Cellphone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Swallowed_My_Cellphone)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/91 "2009-08-21T19:22:08Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Aneurysm. “Aortic dissection” is what I was looking for. That what killed John Ritter. Apparently my buddy’s condition puts him at quite a high risk for the same thing to happen, and also more prone to aneurysm. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/92 "2009-08-21T19:31:18Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > And yet none of the other runners look like dudes, funny that. Most female runners have incredibly athletic bodies and would never be confused with men. (snip) Agreed. Regardless of body fat, toning, and muscle mass, they are still immediately identifiable as women. The person in question?..Not so much. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/93 "2009-08-21T19:36:45Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Right. You have prevailed that point upon me. Now I want to know why you think a runner who purports to be a woman and who achieves an excellent–but by no means unheard off–800m race result needs to be genetically tested to determine her sex. And I will require specific, articulable facts beyond “she looks like a dude.” After all, she has the body of any elite female sprinter. What were you expecting? The curvaceous body of a Titian nude? > > I will tell you why you say “she looks like a dude.” It is because her athleticism challenges your equivalence of the male-female and stronger-weaker dichotomies. She looks like a dude to you _only because_ she looks like a world-class athlete. Allegations of non-womanhood, whether they’re your workaday accusations of lesbianism or more rococo genetic speculations, are par for the course in women’s athletics because some people can’t get their minds around the possibility that maybe women aren’t at such insurmountable disadvantages. Actually, it is other female world class athletes who are making the loudest claims that she is a man: "“These kind of people should not run with us,” Elisa Cusma of Italy, who finished sixth, said in a postrace interview with Italian journalists. “For me, she’s not a woman. She’s a man.” Mariya Savinova, a Russian who finished fifth, told Russian journalists that she did not believe Semenya would be able to pass a test. “Just look at her,” Savinova said." ---
**Author:** ![Telperien](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/65b543/32.png) [@Telperien](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telperien)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/94 "2009-08-21T19:46:15Z")
Hmm, I’m sure the fact that Semenya’s competitors are among her accusers has nothing to do with the fact that she beat them. Oh, no, not a thing. Looks to me like it’s envy on their parts, and anger at Semenya’s audacity not to look like as feminine as possible while being a freaking elite athlete on the parts of her other accusers. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/95 "2009-08-21T19:49:27Z")
> [@Telperien](#): > > Hmm, I’m sure the fact that Semenya’s competitors are among her accusers has nothing to do with the fact that she beat them. Agreed, everybody seems to be glossing over their identical complaints against the other runners who were faster than them. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/96 "2009-08-21T19:50:30Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > So then you think only transsexuals should compete in women’s sports? Because that’s what would be the likely result. Okay, now you’re just being silly. There aren’t that many transsexuals in the world, and the percentage of them who are capable of becoming world class athletes is no higher than it is in the rest of the population. Not to mention, most mtf transsexuals are at considerable pains to look as feminine as possible, which is rather contradicted by the sort of physical regime necessary to compete at these levels. Muscle mass is the bane of the mtf transsexual. I can understand the objection to the idea of transsexuals competing in women’s sporting events, but even if there were no restrictions on it at all, it’s still going to be an extremely rare situation. As an aside, and I don’t mean this as a “gotcha” question, but how would you all feel about a ftm transsexual competing in a men’s event? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/97 "2009-08-21T19:55:31Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > As an aside, and I don’t mean this as a “gotcha” question, but how would you all feel about a ftm transsexual competing in a men’s event? I don’t think anyone would care because there isn’t any inherent advantage in being a ftm transsexual vs. being a genetic male. ---
**Author:** ![Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimmy_Gibbler)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/98 "2009-08-21T20:01:06Z")
> [@lalenin](#): > > Actually, it is other female world class athletes who are making the loudest claims that she is a man: > > "“These kind of people should not run with us,” Elisa Cusma of Italy, who finished sixth, said in a postrace interview with Italian journalists. “For me, she’s not a woman. She’s a man.” > > Mariya Savinova, a Russian who finished fifth, told Russian journalists that she did not believe Semenya would be able to pass a test. “Just look at her,” Savinova said." Typical white people. ---
**Author:** ![Acid\_Lamp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Acid\_Lamp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acid_Lamp)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/99 "2009-08-21T20:11:01Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Typical white people. Reported. ---
**Author:** ![lalenin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@lalenin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lalenin)\ **Post date:** [August 21, 2009, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088/100 "2009-08-21T20:20:52Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > Typical white people. If that’s not a joke then it is just sad. If it is a joke, it is a miserably bad one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caster-semenya-and-gender-tests-in-sports/507088.md?page=6)