# Castle theory of guns and protection **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368 "2009-02-04T03:53:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/241 "2009-02-07T19:14:04Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > All I claimed was that stats would show burglary in the UK has decreased since the late 70’s… Where did you claim that? Please link to the post. I must have missed it. And **cite** please. Has burglary decreased in the UK since the 70’s? I can’t find the info. I’m truly curious, but my google digging hasn’t turned up the stats. Perhaps you could help. [QUOTE=ivan astikov] and it’s not because criminals fear the homeowners more these days. [/QUOTE] So this is your opinion as a former burglar? Perhaps the economy improved? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 7, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/242 "2009-02-07T19:29:31Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > But of course, those are just as ridiculous as blaming the homeowner for a burglary because they didn’t lock their house down akin to a prison. I do think trying to explain this simple point to an ex-criminal who still thinks like one has been exhaustively impossible. I give up. Yeah. Me too. Ivan has shared more than he thinks. I never realized that some criminals think that the victim is to blame. I will remember Ivans posts the next time I’m on a jury. No good Ivan. And as this is GD, I can’t really express some of my feelings. I can say that I think you are 100% wrong and that your criminal background has clouded your mind. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/243 "2009-02-08T03:47:01Z")
> [@ExTank](#): > > . . . retract your [del]lie[/del] deliberate misrepresentation of my words. C’mon, Tank. You are not so dumb as to think that a strikeout eliminates a violation of the rules. These threads are full of people posting things they perceive was said, based on bad reading comprehension, a bias in how they pervceive what they read, or a lack of competence to explain their actual thoughts. Let’s leave the accusations of lying to the Pit. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/244 "2009-02-08T06:01:21Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Yeah. Me too. Ivan has shared more than he thinks. I never realized that some criminals think that the victim is to blame. I will remember Ivans posts the next time I’m on a jury. > > No good Ivan. And as this is GD, I can’t really express some of my feelings. I can say that I think you are 100% wrong and that your criminal background has clouded your mind. If this thread were in the pit methinks Ivan would have a harder audience to convince. I’m very tired and not feeling well, but still tempted to link this and the monster thread to pit and ask once more \*\*\*“When does the criminal bear any responsibilty to the actions that lead to him or her being shot?”. \*\*\* I mean seriously, if you can’t answer that, why bother defending prison kitties? Bah…when this subject comes up in the pit I’ll come back. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/245 "2009-02-08T10:26:35Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Where did you claim that? Please link to the post. I must have missed it. First off I said this > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’ll go even further and say I don’t even know any burglars now, but I’m aware enough of my environment to know that they occur far less than they used to. and then this > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > All I claimed was that stats would show burglary in the UK has decreased since the late 70’s…and it’s not because criminals fear the homeowners more these days. > [@enipla](#): > > And **cite** please. Has burglary decreased in the UK since the 70’s? I can’t find the info. I’m truly curious, but my google digging hasn’t turned up the stats. Perhaps you could help. It seems I was a bit out on my timeline, but there’s a little info [here](http://www.s1-alarm-systems.co.uk/domesticalarms/burglaryfacts.html#Anchor-How-7638). > [@](#): > > Between 1981 and 1993 burglaries increased by 137%. There was a decline through the rest of the 1990’s but which has now leveled off and 2002 showed a 5% annual increase. Aggravated burglary (where the occupiers are home at the time) rose 14% in 2002 One of the problems we seem to be having regarding reliable information is that “official” _helpful_ statistics are pretty hard to find. > [@enipla](#): > > So this is your opinion as a former burglar? Perhaps the economy improved? Bearing in mind the need for prison places hasn’t lessened, I think we can safely assume the burglars just moved into another line of crime. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/246 "2009-02-08T10:58:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Between 1981 and 1993 burglaries increased by 137% Really, this should have been fairly obvious to me. I stopped around '83, and it wasn’t because it was getting too difficult. Or because the hours or the money were crap either.(Although the fact you got the stuff for nothing always meant the buyer wanted to pay near enough the same!) I stopped because I robbed the wrong person’s house one time and was reminded that there were people in those homes who I knew nothing about. Prior to that, I doubt I gave a thought for whose house I was in. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/247 "2009-02-08T14:16:30Z")
Ivan – Not knowing any burglars does not support your claim that burglary is going down. Perhaps you’re hanging with a better crowd? You stated that burglary has decreased since the 70’s. And you said it was not because of the fear of homeowners. You stated that it’s because of better security. > [@Ivan astikov](#): > > It’s not because the burglars are scared the homeowners might have weapons to defend themselves - it’s because people’s security consciousness has been ramped up by the mistakes of their predecessors.\* ? You also say that burglary was not getting difficult. > [@Ivan](#): > > Really, this should have been fairly obvious to me. I stopped around '83, and it wasn’t because it was getting too difficult. So this better security did not make burglary more difficult. You quit because you had a crisis of conscious. The stats you linked to don’t support your claims that burglary is going down. It’s going up if anything. The website you linked to does not support your claims. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/248 "2009-02-08T14:43:02Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > So this better security did not make burglary more difficult. You quit because you had a crisis of conscious. It wasn’t a crisis of conscience that stopped him - it was because he tried to rob another criminal that was bigger than him. > [@Ok, if I shouldn't \_shoot\_ the intruder, then...?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/ok-if-i-shouldnt-_shoot_-the-intruder-then/482060/270): > > I stopped burgling houses six years later, not because I was afraid of getting caught by the police, but because I burgled a ‘gangster’s’ house by mistake, and was made to realise the error of my ways, in that you never knew who’s house you were robbing if you were an opportunist thief. (If anyone wants to make that Pit thread, I think that would be a better place to discuss Ivan’s deficiencies) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/249 "2009-02-08T15:03:34Z")
> [@ivan astikov](#): > > I stopped burgling houses six years later, not because I was afraid of getting caught by the police, but because I burgled a ‘gangster’s’ house by mistake, and was made to realise the error of my ways, in that you never knew who’s house you were robbing if you were an opportunist thief. Oh. So it wasn’t a security system that stopped Ivan. Or morals or conscience. It was coming up against someone bigger and badder than he was. Sort of like a home owner that may be prepared to defend themself. Lesson learned. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/250 "2009-02-08T19:32:52Z")
You may be interested to hear how said ‘gangster’ dealt with the situation. After making discreet enquiries, he came into the pub I drank in one afternoon, and beckoned me to go outside. Knowing who he was, running wasn’t an option, so I followed him out onto the car-park. He then described a house I had burgled a week or so before, and when I said I didn’t know what he was on about, he warned me that he wasn’t the police and all he wanted to know was if someone had put me onto the house, because he was away on holiday at the time. He accepted that his neighbour, who he’d asked to look after the house, hadn’t left the window open deliberately and that it was pure chance on my part that I came across it while there was nobody there. He also put down to experience the loss of his tv and video recorder, and advised me not to shit on my own doorstep in future. Sort of shatters the violent reputation of dirty, rotten criminals, doesn’t it? ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/251 "2009-02-08T19:53:41Z")
I think it’s time you bowed out of this thread and any others regarding guns and/or burglaries. You are an admitted criminal, and as such, you have no credibility here. The most amazing things, which you don’t seem to grasp, yet has been pointed out several times; are your constant attempts to blame others for your actions, avoid personal responsibility and, like the above story, attempt to distract attention from those two problems. Please put down the keyboard and walk away from these threads. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/252 "2009-02-08T20:14:51Z")
I am an admitted **ex** -criminal, not that it seems to make a difference to some people, and the ‘above story’ was a rectification of the assumption other posters were making, that an encounter with the threat of force was what made me retire from committing burglaries. I was ‘reasoned’, not threatened into rethinking my position. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/253 "2009-02-08T20:25:34Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > You may be interested to hear how said ‘gangster’ dealt with the situation… > > After making discreet enquiries, he came into the pub I drank in one afternoon, and beckoned me to go outside. Knowing who he was, running wasn’t an option, so I followed him out onto the car-park… > > Sort of shatters the violent reputation of dirty, rotten criminals, doesn’t it? Sounds like you were shitting-your-pants-afraid. If you weren’t afraid of him and/or knew he wasn’t going to do anything to you, why wasn’t running an option? You also took the opportunity, or at least so you say, to get out of burglary at this point. Your anecdote reads to me like on _this_ occasion _that_ particular gangster elected not to beat the tar out of you for some reason of his own. Maybe he was in a good mood. Maybe you were so obviously, pathetically afraid of him that he figured you’d suffered enough already. Maybe you wept and begged enough to soften his heart. Who knows? The fact is that your anecdote sounds rather convincingly like you had every reason to expect a lot of pain in your immediate future, you realized you had gotten lucky, and that’s why you turned to burglarizing commercial sites. It wasn’t about suddenly feeling empathy for your victims. It was about you wanting to stay in one piece. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/254 "2009-02-08T20:29:45Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Sort of shatters the violent reputation of dirty, rotten criminals, doesn’t it? For justice, we must go to Don Asitkov! Hmmm. If that movie didn’t shatter the violent reputation of criminals, I’m not sure you can. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/255 "2009-02-08T20:37:46Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > The stats you linked to don’t support your claims that burglary is going down. It’s going up if anything. The website you linked to does not support your claims. Actually, some of the stats completely reinforce my claims that the average homeowners security measurements are piss poor. • In a road, the burglar will choose the property without visible signs of security, such as security lighting or alarm bell boxes, over those with such devices. • Households are more than twice as likely to be burgled if they’ve been burgled in the previous four years. • Most burglaries are not pre-planned, they’re committed by opportunist thieves who spot an open door, window, or valuables on display. • In 20% of burglaries they don’t even have to use force – they get in through an open window or unlocked door. • 70% enter through a door, with almost all the rest through a window. • A thief can get through any gap larger than a human head • British Crime Survey statistics show that security devices, in particular intruder alarms, “..are very effective in reducing the risk of burglary..” ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/256 "2009-02-08T20:43:42Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Sounds like you were shitting-your-pants-afraid. If you weren’t afraid of him and/or knew he wasn’t going to do anything to you, why wasn’t running an option? > You also took the opportunity, or at least so you say, to get out of burglary at this point. > Your anecdote reads to me like on _this_ occasion _that_ particular gangster elected not to beat the tar out of you for some reason of his own. Maybe he was in a good mood. Maybe you were so obviously, pathetically afraid of him that he figured you’d suffered enough already. Maybe you wept and begged enough to soften his heart. Who knows? The fact is that your anecdote sounds rather convincingly like you had every reason to expect a lot of pain in your immediate future, you realized you had gotten lucky, and that’s why you turned to burglarizing commercial sites. > It wasn’t about suddenly feeling empathy for your victims. > It was about you wanting to stay in one piece. Or perhaps he merely realised it wasn’t personal, and that if he’d been 20 years younger he could easily have been in the same position? Who knows, eh? But after that, he did put me on to some of those ‘commercial sites’ you mentioned, and buy some of the proceeds, so all’s well that ends well, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/257 "2009-02-08T21:13:43Z")
You still haven’t explained why running wasn’t an option. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/258 "2009-02-08T21:36:39Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > You still haven’t explained why running wasn’t an option. Because he obviously knew who I was and I didn’t want the problem following me back home to my parents house. I wasn’t scared of him because I was young and full of myself, but I was aware of what he was capable of and knew I had to face the music. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/259 "2009-02-08T21:47:41Z")
One petty criminal (you) being pants-shittingly-afraid of another more powerful criminal (him) after foolishly burglarizing his house is the simplest explanation that fits all the facts as we know them. Criminals are not an empathetic or altruistic group, IME. Empathetic and altruistic people do not become criminals. The gangster not taking his losses out of your hide was almost certainly motivated by selfish reasons of his own. Here’s a possibility: he had his fingers in enough illicit activity that he figured he didn’t need to draw police attention to himself by beating up a punk-assed teenager. Simplest explanation and all that. Selfish, unempathetic criminals are so much more common than warm, caring criminals that I’m sure even you have to agree that my explanation is the more believable of the two. On top of that, I have no incentive to try to paint the story in a way so as to make the most favorable impression of the criminal class. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/260 "2009-02-08T22:15:16Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > One petty criminal (you) being pants-shittingly-afraid of another more powerful criminal (him) after foolishly burglarizing his house is the simplest explanation that fits all the facts as we know them. > Criminals are not an empathetic or altruistic group, IME. Empathetic and altruistic people do not become criminals. The gangster not taking his losses out of your hide was almost certainly motivated by selfish reasons of his own. Here’s a possibility: he had his fingers in enough illicit activity that he figured he didn’t need to draw police attention to himself by beating up a punk-assed teenager. Simplest explanation and all that. Selfish, unempathetic criminals are so much more common than warm, caring criminals that I’m sure even you have to agree that my explanation is the more believable of the two. On top of that, I have no incentive to try to paint the story in a way so as to make the most favorable impression of the criminal class. Because you live in a black and white world, and seemingly refuse to see colours or shades. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368.md?page=14)