# Castle theory of guns and protection **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368 "2009-02-04T03:53:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![Jolly\_Roger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/91b2a8/32.png) [@Jolly\_Roger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jolly_Roger)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/261 "2009-02-08T22:20:33Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Because you live in a black and white world, and seemingly refuse to see colours or shades. Wow…just wow…:eek: unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/262 "2009-02-08T22:26:35Z")
And **Scumpup** , why do you believe his kicking my ass would have drawn ‘police attention’? Do you really think I’d have complained to the police? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/263 "2009-02-08T22:28:59Z")
> [@Jolly\_Roger](#): > > Wow…just wow…:eek: > > unbelievable. Well, he does seem to have a definitive view of how criminals behave, don’t you think? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/264 "2009-02-08T23:29:28Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > And **Scumpup** , why do you believe his kicking my ass would have drawn ‘police attention’? Do you really think I’d have complained to the police? No, but your parents might have, especially if he seriously injured you. Hospitals make police reports as well. Criminals,IME, like to gossip. If he was smart enough to be a real gangster he knew all that. Word of who shizzled you up would have eventually surfaced. Sorry to puncture your illusions about the man, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/265 "2009-02-08T23:46:26Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Sort of shatters the violent reputation of dirty, rotten criminals, doesn’t it? Only if one begins with the premise that criminals are produced in cookie cutter fashion in the image of the movie _Scarface_ rather than figuring that criminals come in a lot of different attitudes and behaviors. On the other hand, this > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Knowing who he was, running wasn’t an option, so I followed him out onto the car-park. belies the point you are attempting to make. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/266 "2009-02-08T23:46:54Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > No, but your parents might have, especially if he seriously injured you. Hospitals make police reports as well. Criminals,IME, like to gossip. If he was smart enough to be a real gangster he knew all that. Word of who shizzled you up would have eventually surfaced. Sorry to puncture your illusions about the man, but there it is. How can you puncture my illusions about the man? As I mentioned earlier, I actually got to know him and developed a bit of a business relationship with the fella, whereas you had never even heard of him prior to this thread. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/267 "2009-02-08T23:51:29Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > On the other hand, thisbelies the point you are attempting to make. I’m not sure how? When I said running wasn’t an option, I meant it wasn’t a sensible one. I could have tried leaving by the vault door and I’d have ran straight into his mate who was waiting there. Perhaps he appreciated my chutzpah at just going straight out and facing him? As I’ve said, he didn’t seem to hold my actions against me…which is more than I can say for some people on here. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2009, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/268 "2009-02-08T23:59:00Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > . He also put down to experience the loss of his tv and video recorder, and advised me not to shit on my own doorstep in future. > > Sort of shatters the violent reputation of dirty, rotten criminals, doesn’t it? So, If us law abiding types just ask the local criminals to no shit on our doosteps, can we all then unarm and sing kum bi ya (sp?) as we dance hand in hand down to the local Walmart? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/269 "2009-02-09T00:04:12Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So, > > If us law abiding types just ask the local criminals to no shit on our doosteps, can we all then unarm and sing kum bi ya (sp?) as we dance hand in hand down to the local Walmart? I think you’d find that the IRA were more effective at crime reduction than the local bobbies, in Northern Ireland, but even they couldn’t deter ALL thieves. There were teenagers who were knee-capped and still went out joy-riding in stolen cars. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/270 "2009-02-09T01:59:30Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > As I’ve said, he didn’t seem to hold my actions against me…which is more than I can say for some people on here. Bwwa ha ha. No. I’m sure he didn’t mind that you burgled him at all. That’s why he tracked you down and threatened your ass. And again, your supposed cite did nothing to support your claims that crime has been going down since the 70’s because people have better security. As to you giving up your criminal ways - What stopped you is a bigger criminal than you are. What stopped you was not locks or security systems, but the threat of possible injury or violence to your person. It’s no wonder that a former burglar like yourself takes a dim view of people that may actually try to defend themselves. You admited that the idea that you may be injured if you kept up your thieving ways is what put you out of business. Yet you still blame the victim. It’s been very interesting to see into the mind of a criminal and see how they try to justify their actions. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/271 "2009-02-09T13:24:43Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > How can you puncture my illusions about the man? > > As I mentioned earlier, I actually got to know him and developed a bit of a business relationship with the fella, whereas you had never even heard of him prior to this thread. 😕 What a surprise. A gangster bought stolen goods from you. How does this in any way bolster your arguments about home invasions? ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/272 "2009-02-09T14:09:42Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > What a surprise. A gangster bought stolen goods from you. How does this in any way bolster your arguments about home invasions? I think he might be arguing that instead of just keeping guns in our houses, we should also take them out on our persons and threaten alleged criminals with them. Obviously this would reduce crime. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/273 "2009-02-09T20:54:11Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > Bwwa ha ha. No. I’m sure he didn’t mind that you burgled him at all. That’s why he tracked you down and threatened your ass. > As to you giving up your criminal ways - What stopped you is a bigger criminal than you are. What stopped you was not locks or security systems, but the threat of possible injury or violence to your person. It’s no wonder that a former burglar like yourself takes a dim view of people that may actually try to defend themselves. You admited that the idea that you may be injured if you kept up your thieving ways is what put you out of business. Did you miss the bit where I mentioned that his main concern was that he hadn’t been ‘set up’? > [@enipla](#): > > And again, your supposed cite did nothing to support your claims that crime has been going down since the 70’s because people have better security. Well, actually it did indicate they had gone down since reaching a peak in the 90’s. At least my educated guess got the general trend right. As for the reason why; what do you think it was, if it wasn’t better security practices?\*\*\*\*\* > [@Scumpup](#): > > What a surprise. A gangster bought stolen goods from you. How does this in any way bolster your arguments about home invasions? It wasn’t meant to. It was intended to pop your bubble of belief about knowing someone better than me, who you have never even met. \*\*\*\*\* Here’s an idea, check how many home security firms came into being over the same time scale! ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/274 "2009-02-09T21:02:05Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’m not sure how? When I said running wasn’t an option, I meant it wasn’t a sensible one. I could have tried leaving by the vault door and I’d have ran straight into his mate who was waiting there. Perhaps he appreciated my chutzpah at just going straight out and facing him? As I’ve said, he didn’t seem to hold my actions against me…which is more than I can say for some people on here. And his mate would have what…given you a slap on the wrists? This story doesn’t make any sense unless there was at least the implicit threat of violence. He may have made you an offer you couldn’t have refused, but if it was some random law abiding man who ran into you and tried to set you straight, it wouldn’t have really sunk in, would it have? ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/275 "2009-02-09T21:26:58Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > And his mate would have what…given you a slap on the wrists? This story doesn’t make any sense unless there was at least the implicit threat of violence. He may have made you an offer you couldn’t have refused, but if it was some random law abiding man who ran into you and tried to set you straight, it wouldn’t have really sunk in, would it have? I think if I had tried running and gone out the side door, I probably would have ended up getting a kicking on the car-park. Scumpup may like to believe that I had to plead for mercy, but it didn’t go anything like that, and all I had to do was convince him that it wasn’t personal and that I’d make up his losses for him. You know, like civilised human beings? ( Btw, I don’t know if it crossed your mind, but who do you think stolen goods get sold to? Do you reckon the people who buy them consider themselves criminal accessories?) ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/276 "2009-02-09T21:59:49Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I think if I had tried running and gone out the side door, I probably would have ended up getting a kicking on the car-park. > > Scumpup may like to believe that I had to plead for mercy, but it didn’t go anything like that, and all I had to do was convince him that it wasn’t personal and that I’d make up his losses for him. You know, like civilised human beings? > > ( Btw, I don’t know if it crossed your mind, but who do you think stolen goods get sold to? Do you reckon the people who buy them consider themselves criminal accessories?) In other words, “Yes, I figured I would get the shit kicked out of me if I had run, so the best thing to do was gamble that if I played it straight with him, then he’d show clemency.” Fear. Threat of violence. Not one single iota of actually recognizing the rights of your victims, or sympathy, or empathy, or guilt or a realization of the wrongness of your actions. Sociopathic self-interest dictated that you stop because the potential downside (if you robbed the “wrong house” again) finally outweighed the potential upside (monetary gain, the “thrill” of breaking in). “Civilized human beings” don’t do things like this. Sociopaths do. You can dress up a sociopath, teach him proper grammar and have him study in a university all you want, and all you end up with is a well-mannered sociopath who will STILL have only self-interest at heart. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/277 "2009-02-09T22:09:25Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I think if I had tried running and gone out the side door, I probably would have ended up getting a kicking on the car-park. > > Scumpup may like to believe that I had to plead for mercy, but it didn’t go anything like that, and all I had to do was convince him that it wasn’t personal and that I’d make up his losses for him. You know, like civilised human beings I believe I covered this earlier. You wept and begged enough to soften his heart. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/278 "2009-02-09T22:21:31Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I > > Scumpup may like to believe that I had to plead for mercy, but it didn’t go anything like that, and all I had to do was convince him that it wasn’t personal and that I’d make up his losses for him. You know, like **civilised** human beings? The irony! It burns…like a supernova up the rectum after the all you can eat habeneros stuffed with jalepeno’s buffet at the local mexican eatery. CIVILISED !? criminals? Dont take it “personal” when I cap your behind late at night because I can’t tell if you are borrowing my TIVO or pointing your own gun at me… ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/279 "2009-02-09T22:23:18Z")
Next we’ll have well-mannered sociopaths teaching Ethics courses in university. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2009, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/280 "2009-02-09T22:25:09Z")
> [@Cuckoorex](#): > > In other words, “Yes, I figured I would get the shit kicked out of me if I had run, so the best thing to do was gamble that if I played it straight with him, then he’d show clemency.” Fear. Threat of violence. Not one single iota of actually recognizing the rights of your victims, or sympathy, or empathy, or guilt or a realization of the wrongness of your actions. > Sociopathic self-interest dictated that you stop because the potential downside (if you robbed the “wrong house” again) finally outweighed the potential upside (monetary gain, the “thrill” of breaking in). Or maybe, just maybe, my conscience was looking for a reason to stop committing a crime that wasn’t sitting well with me, and this was the push into a different line of work I needed? Nah, I was probably just a heartless bastard! I won’t apologise to you for my past though. > [@Cuckoorex](#): > > “Civilized human beings” don’t do things like this. Sociopaths do. You can dress up a sociopath, teach him proper grammar and have him study in a university all you want, and all you end up with is a well-mannered sociopath who will STILL have only self-interest at heart. Was I a sociopath back then, or am I still one now? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368.md?page=15)