# Castle theory of guns and protection **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 4, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368 "2009-02-04T03:53:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/141 "2009-02-05T16:58:45Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > So, as someone who should be a little familiar with the standard methods of breaking and entering, how much do you think it would cost to get the ‘average home’ secure enough to keep out all but the professional burglar? Then thousand dollars. > [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > How much do you think it would cost for the firearm training to make you feel safe in any circumstance as long as you had your gun? One thousand dollars would more than do you. ---
**Author:** ![Cuckoorex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Cuckoorex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cuckoorex)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/142 "2009-02-05T17:23:31Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Start with[this one](http://www.saysuncle.com/archives/2007/12/18/no_knock_raid_on_wrong_house_goes_wrong/)if it dosn’t make your head explode since it “can’t happen”. 1. PLEASE, I’m begging you, PLEASE go through every one of my posts in this thread and point out where I said something “can’t happen.” You put that in quotes as if it was a direct quotation from me, and I NEVER FUCKING SAID IT “CAN’T HAPPEN”. You simply cannot resist misrepresenting me in this conversation, can you? 2. I asked you to provide as many cites of those situations that you could find, and to your credit, the two that you found are much better examples of the kinds of situations that would be relevant…however… 3. As mentioned earlier in the thread: > [@](#): > > In January 1985, Steven R. Schlesinger, Director of the U.S. Department of Justice, Bureau of Justice Statistics, in a bulletin on Household Burglaries, made the following statement: > > "Household burglary ranks among the more serious felony crimes, not only because it involves the illegal entry of one’s home, but also because **a substantial proportion of the violent crimes that occur in the home take place during a burglary incident.** Note that he doesn’t say “all” or “every” or any other extreme position here. He says that a “substantial proportion of the violent crimes that occur in the home take place during a burglary incident.” That’s his exact quote. I know it’ll be hard for you not to misrepresent what he’s saying here, but try, please. 1. Let me know when you think you’ve gathered enough cites for accidental shootings in mistaken home invasion situations, and I’ll start posting my links to incidents of home invasion that ended in physical harm to the homeowners. Except I’ll probably have to include statistics because I’m likely to get tired of linking to each one after about 20 or so. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/143 "2009-02-05T17:49:06Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > That much money could buy both. A typical gun suitable for home defense use is pretty inexpensive. A pump shotgun or a handgun would run somewhere between 300 and 500 dollars for something utilitarian. Less than that if you buy something used. Eighty for a used pump shotgun. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/144 "2009-02-05T17:57:27Z")
> [@E-Sabbath](#): > > Eighty for a used pump shotgun. Man You were robbed! :smack: ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/145 "2009-02-05T20:55:58Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Here’s a hypothetical. Say the govt. were giving away $5,000 Home Security Improvement grants; would that money be better spent on a high tech, early-warning alarm system, or a gun? I can get one of the [best](http://www.nationalmuttday.com/pics/shelter_dog.jpg)alarm systems available for nothing down and less than $50 a month. And a gun to go with it. If I choose my system and gun wisely, I can combine them for a great duck hunting experience as well. ---
**Author:** ![Bobotheoptimist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/919ad9/32.png) [@Bobotheoptimist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bobotheoptimist)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/146 "2009-02-05T20:59:59Z")
I abandoned this thread after the first page because I knew it would end up like this. It always does, but I just had to come back and see. Someday, I hope, I will be wrong and reasonableness will extend all the way to page 3 or even 4. In order to save the poor hamsters I will sum up the next two pages - “Guns are bad!” “No they’re not!” ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/147 "2009-02-05T21:05:44Z")
## Pardon me for returning late, but… the “shooting a kid through a door on trick-or-treat/Halloween is comparable to shooting an 8 year old home invader” is roughly like saying Cocaine is a drug from which crack is made. Crack is highly addictive and is especially associated with young black men. Barack Obama admits to having used cocaine when he was a young black man. ## Conclusion: Our president is a crack addict. True statements don’t necessarily equal true conclusions. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/148 "2009-02-05T21:06:47Z")
> [@Bobotheoptimist](#): > > “Guns are bad!” > “No they’re not!” Says you! (That’s to represent the running commentary faction.) ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/149 "2009-02-05T21:18:44Z")
Y’know I just wanna say here that gun control is probably the one issue on which the SDMB has most clearly influenced my thinking over the years. I have never, and likely will never, own a gun. Nobody in my immediate, or even extended family owns or ever has owned one (so far as I know). None of my friends are gun owners – even the one that’s a professional private eye. And before coming to the SDMB, I was pretty much a middle-of-the-road, I-can-see-both sides kind of person, who didn’t mind hunters but who probably wouldn’t have cared about a handgun ban. It was threads on here, and the sources and arguments they led me to, that made me a staunch proponent of the second amendment. And frankly, it wasn’t even so much that the pro-gun people were always so eloquent – it’s that the gun-control types’ arguments were so utterly pathetic. Almost always the same sort of strawmanning, goalpost moving, missing-the-point, anecdote-relying, fear-mongering, children-invoking and shoddy logic. Gay marriage opponents make a better case than some of these guys, and frankly, many of the professionals they linked to weren’t much better. (I will concede that I thought Michael Bellesiles made some good arguments; of course, it turns out he was making his facts up, so there’s that.) Anyway … I just put it in here for people who wonder if arguing on the internet does any good. Usually not, but sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/150 "2009-02-05T21:45:29Z")
> [@Bobotheoptimist](#): > > In order to save the poor hamsters I will sum up the next two pages - > > “Guns are bad!” > “No they’re not!” I disagree. It’s more like: “Your possessions aren’t worth more than prison kitty who will clearly let their intent of not harming anyone be known!” “If I don’t shoot people breaking into my house, soon nobody will have any possessions left!” ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/151 "2009-02-05T22:03:16Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Y’know I just wanna say here that gun control is probably the one issue on which the SDMB has most clearly influenced my thinking over the years. > > I have never, and likely will never, own a gun. Nobody in my immediate, or even extended family owns or ever has owned one (so far as I know). None of my friends are gun owners – even the one that’s a professional private eye. And before coming to the SDMB, I was pretty much a middle-of-the-road, I-can-see-both sides kind of person, who didn’t mind hunters but who probably wouldn’t have cared about a handgun ban. > > It was threads on here, and the sources and arguments they led me to, that made me a staunch proponent of the second amendment. And frankly, it wasn’t even so much that the pro-gun people were always so eloquent – it’s that the gun-control types’ arguments were so utterly pathetic. Almost always the same sort of strawmanning, goalpost moving, missing-the-point, anecdote-relying, fear-mongering, children-invoking and shoddy logic. Gay marriage opponents make a better case than some of these guys, and frankly, many of the professionals they linked to weren’t much better. (I will concede that I thought Michael Bellesiles made some good arguments; of course, it turns out he was making his facts up, so there’s that.) > Anyway … I just put it in here for people who wonder if arguing on the internet does any good. > > Usually not, but sometimes. I am in the same boat. I used a gun once to VERY good effect, but besides some sorta friends that hunt, few around me own guns, use guns, or are very gun hoo. I dont own a gun and never have. I too have often been take it or leave it hand gun wise, but over the years here on the SDMB the anti gun arguments have been so very pathetic (like you said) that they have turned me pretty pro gun in an intellectual sense. So much so that I almost feel like I should join the NRA, get training and buy a gun in order to be a responsible citizen. Keep up the good work all you anti gun zealots out there 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/152 "2009-02-05T22:16:52Z")
[QUOTE=furt] Y’know I just wanna say here that gun control is probably the one issue on which the SDMB has most clearly influenced my thinking over the years. [/QUOTE] What’s funny is…I don’t own a gun either and haven’t since the birth of my first child (over 20 years ago). -XT ---
**Author:** ![ExTank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@ExTank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ExTank)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/153 "2009-02-05T22:29:06Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Whereas you advocates of reasonable gun usage have all played Rainbow Six on the PS2, sufficiently enough to deal with any extreme situation. Nice dig, and new! It’s not the tried-and-true (but extremely played out)standard “penises” insult. Kudos to you for finding a new way to try to insult gun owners. I wonder if you could put that much effort into critical thinking skills, then you wouldn’t need to resort to petty insults to make your case. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/154 "2009-02-05T23:29:38Z")
What bugs me about the pro-deadly-force side of the argument being made here is the idea that someone-is-in-my-house automatically means that-person-is-a-threat-justifying-deadly-force. Granted, I think it’s a strong piece of evidence towards that conclusion, but I don’t think it should be thought of as 100% conclusive in and of itself. That is, “he was in my house unexpectedly” should not be an automatic excuse for killing, all by itself. As a real life example, here’s something that happened to me while I was volunteering for Obama in Pittsburgh before the election (copied from another thread): “I really only had one negative experience (aside from ending up with very very sore feet): So I was doing a GOTV pass on election day, and I had just had a bunch of addresses in a row that were apartment buildings. Many of these buildings have an outside door that you open and go in, and then you’re in a little lobby with a bunch of bells to ring, and a locked inner door. So I come to another address, and it’s a big square 3-or-4-story building with two front doors with different addresses, and I had 3 different people living there. In other words, it seemed exactly like an apartment building. So I walk up, and the main building door is open. So I look in and see what looks like a very nice sitting area, with sofas and stuff. So I think to myself that it must be some sort of very high class apartment complex, or maybe some kind of assisted living place for seniors or something. So I walk in, looking for a front desk or a directory or something… and this woman comes up to me and says “what do you want? You shouldn’t just walk into someone’s house”. Oops. And then she said she was voting for McCain, although hopefully that wasn’t just because of me. Anyhow, I can only imagine her telling all her friends about how extraordinarily rude and pushy Obama volunteers are. Knocking on doors of strangers is awkward enough. Walking into their houses uninvited is much, much worse.” If someone in that house had shot me dead would they have been morally justified? And should they have been found innocent of murder/manslaughter? My opinion is this: “he was in my house unexpectedly” should not be carte blanche for opening fire, but it should change the rules of engagement drastically. ---
**Author:** ![BrandonR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/779978/32.png) [@BrandonR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrandonR)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/155 "2009-02-05T23:43:48Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > If someone in that house had shot me dead would they have been morally justified? And should they have been found innocent of murder/manslaughter? > > My opinion is this: “he was in my house unexpectedly” should not be carte blanche for opening fire, but it should change the rules of engagement drastically. Well walking into a house in the middle of the day dressed professionally is quite different from being woken up in the middle of the night to find someone in your house. And I also don’t know of too many people who would run through their house shooting everything that moves without at first investigating the situation and determining if force is required. But really, the time of day makes all the difference in your anecdote. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/156 "2009-02-05T23:50:01Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > Well walking into a house in the middle of the day dressed professionally is quite different from being woken up in the middle of the night to find someone in your house. And I also don’t know of too many people who would run through their house shooting everything that moves without at first investigating the situation and determining if force is required. But really, the time of day makes all the difference in your anecdote. See? You just have to read his…tells. 🙂 I’d just assume that anyone dressed nicely, walking around, looking for the house’s owner in the middle of the day probably wasn’t up to mischief. If they come into my house and tell me about how great Obama/saving the whales/Jesus is, they’re probably not a threat. I think being in someone’s house in the middle of the night is in and of itself a good tell. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/157 "2009-02-05T23:52:00Z")
> [@MaxTheVool](#): > > That is, “he was in my house unexpectedly” should not be an automatic excuse for killing, all by itself. How about “He feloniously entered my house and posed a very real, albeit potential, danger.” > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > If someone in that house had shot me dead would they have been morally justified? I won’t speak to morally, because I don’t like to impose my morals on other people any more than I want their morals imposed on me. What we need to talk about is _legally_. _Legally_, I think they should be without charge. Not because you posed a threat, but because you posed a potential threat. They should, but should not be required to by law, telling “Freeze or I’ll shoot.” Now, **morally** , I think they would be in the wrong to shoot you. That doesn’t mean they would be legally obligated to follow that set of moral values. > [@MaxTheVool](#): > > And should they have been found innocent of murder/manslaughter? Yes. ---
**Author:** ![Todderbob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e47774/32.png) [@Todderbob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Todderbob)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/158 "2009-02-05T23:53:02Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > So much so that I almost feel like I should join the NRA, get training and buy a gun in order to be a responsible citizen. > > Keep up the good work all you anti gun zealots out there 🙂 Do it! And go to the range once and a while, it’s a great pass time! ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2009, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/159 "2009-02-05T23:58:36Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Clarification for relevance? It is response to another thread. I gave him the cites then. i will not repeat as he keeps shooting. One to a customer. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2009, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368/160 "2009-02-06T00:26:29Z")
> [@Todderbob](#): > > Do it! > > And go to the range once and a while, it’s a great pass time! Well that latest obama story did get my palms all sweaty… time to arm up I think 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castle-theory-of-guns-and-protection/484368.md?page=9)