# Castro listed among richest people **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 18, 2005, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150 "2005-03-18T16:41:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/21 "2005-03-18T21:27:38Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > You do realize that just because the US doesn’t trade with Cuba, nothing really prevents other nations from doing so…right? In fact, Cuba DOES trade with many other nations (go to Canada sometime if you like Cigars for instance). So, same answer I gave 'luci…he would stick his ‘ill-gotten gains’ in the same places you would. He’ll use it for the same reason you do…to buy things. Its kind of a weak arguement anyway to say Castro doesn’t need the money therefor he doesn’t have it…some folks amass fortunes just because they can, or they like too…or for the power it gives them.-XT Undoubtedly. But as I said, it’s unlikely that Castro is ever going to leave Cuba for good, so he probably doesn’t have much reason to amass a big pile of loot for when he finally retires to somewhere where he can spend it. And there just isn’t that much to spend it on in Cuba, even though they can trade with any nation on the planet other than the United States. He does not appear to lead an especially luxurious life in Cuba. In fact, his life seems pretty Spartan (on the scale of world leaders). Whatever one thinks of him, he really doesn’t seem to be motivated by that sort of thing. And Castro’s power simply doesn’t derive from having a whole bunch of money. It originally came from military force. He led an armed revolution/insurrection/whatever you want to call it, which at the time enjoyed widespread (although hardly universal) support in Cuba. His regime still has considerable, although rapidly diminishing, popular support. Money wasn’t necessary for him to obtain the power he has, and it isn’t necessary to maintain it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/22 "2005-03-18T21:28:44Z")
> [@CNN](#): > > Castro, 78, and in power since a 1959 revolution, said he was considering suing. It was the second straight year Castro has appeared on the Forbes list. Last year, the magazine put his worth at $150 million I suppose the debate could be: Will Castro sue? 🙂 If he did sue, what court would make the ruling? COULD he sue and win on this? -XT ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/23 "2005-03-18T21:32:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > I suppose the debate could be: Will Castro sue? 🙂 If he did sue, what court would make the ruling? COULD he sue and win on this?-XT I suppose he could. US federal courts have jurisdiction over suits between the United States and citizens of foreign nations. Could he win? I don’t know. Perhaps a libel lawyer on the board could respond. Forbes’s portrayal of him as one of the richest people in the world is obviously nonsense, but I have no idea if that portrayal constitutes actionable libel. The big problem might be that, as I understand it, US law might prohibit an American lawyer from accepting payment for his services from Castro. Of course, the lawyer could always work pro bono, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/24 "2005-03-18T21:40:34Z")
Jeez, man, don’t drag Bono into this… ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/25 "2005-03-18T21:53:15Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > It DOES seem flawed how they calculated it, but as they were a bit sketchy its hard to say (it was only 3 small paragraphs without a lot of detail after all). Why didn’t the head of China make the list for instance if thats how they calculate these things? Was the head of North Korea on it? > … > There must be more too it than what they layed out. I’d like to know how they guess at which state owned companies Castro controls for instance. They aren’t claiming ALL the companies for him or his figure would be a lot higher. [Here is a slideshow of the top “royals and rulers” in Forbes “World’s Richest” feature](http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/2005/03/07/cz_bill05_royalsslide.html). The [intro to the slide show on the Forbes.com site](http://www.forbes.com/billionaires/2005/03/10/cx_lg_0310royal_bill05.html) contains the quote I had above(and which was repeated in the article) about the methodology. Pretty high-level stuff and we don’t have a lot to go on as far as what assets were considered to be under Castro’s control and why those versus others were included/excluded. For that matter we don’t know where they got the estimates of the values of those assets. All in all it’s a bit of a non-starter because the methodology seems unavailable and we can’t tell if it was a fair evaluation or not. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/26 "2005-03-18T21:59:42Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > All in all it’s a bit of a non-starter because the methodology seems unavailable and we can’t tell if it was a fair evaluation or not. I agree…we don’t have enough data available in this thread to make any kind of determination as to exactly how wealthy Castro may or may not be…just a lot of idle speculation. Thanks for the slideshow btw. I note that Castro is the only communist dictator on the list…though most of the figures there are a fairly unsavory lot IMO. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/27 "2005-03-18T22:24:30Z")
True enough, although the “communist dictatorship” is a pretty rare form of government these days. Pretty much every country has a rotating “top dog” slot these days. I would find it hard to credit China’s assets to their head of state(who took office in 2003), but far more credible to assign some of Cuba’s assets to Castro because he’s pretty much going to have those under his exclusive control and not have to worry about when his term is up. Something similar would hold for Queen Elizabeth II. I wouldn’t have thought the prince of Liechtenstein would have been on there at all though, so there were some suprises for me as well. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/28 "2005-03-18T22:28:12Z")
> [@Tigers2B1](#): > > _‘What’s the differences between friend Fidel and organized crime bosses?’_ A really good tailor. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2005, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/29 "2005-03-18T22:34:21Z")
And a good barber. ---
**Author:** ![Sage\_Rat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sage_rat/32/399_2.png) [@Sage\_Rat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sage_Rat)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/30 "2005-03-19T04:08:04Z")
Personally I would argue that Castro is correct. Forbes is basing their number on “theoretical control of money” not “legally entitled funds”. It would be my guess that Castro, by the legal definitions of Cuba, has no greater income or holdings than any other Cuban citizen. To give an example: Pretend we have a child with parents willing to spoil that child to the very limit of their income. (Father Goriot comes to mind.) Legally that child would have no income, even though he might have purchased himself a car on his tenth birthday. I still enjoy the fact that Forbes threw him in there though. 😃 Hope they proceed. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/31 "2005-03-19T08:23:53Z")
**xt:** \*They aren’t claiming ALL the companies for him or his figure would be a lot higher. \* My WAG would be that they “pro-rated” their estimate of his “share” of Cuba’s assets by considering the number of other leaders of the Partido Comunista de Cuba, their rank as compared to Castro’s, etc. But yeah, we’re firmly in WAG territory here when it comes to understanding exactly how Forbes crunched the numbers. Oh well. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/32 "2005-03-19T14:48:13Z")
One of the questions that might help provide a reasonable answer to Castro’s assumed wealth is whether he can be described as an ‘absolute dictator’ or not. This was suggested in the OP. Is the Cuban government Castro – and Castro the government? With that question, I understand that it doesn’t necessarily follow that just because Fidel CAN take when and what he wants – that he DOES. The guy might be as golden as some feel the need to profess — Sweety Fidel. But, if it’s true that power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely — well than. Considering that Fidel has ruled Cuba for about 47 years, his absolute control seems highly plausible. I have a sneaky feel Castro only wears those fatigues when giving one of his 10-hour speeches or to formal interviews. I suspect he has something else in that closet. No one looks that good in fatigues - and ~78 year olds don’t even look ever ready for battle. Not saying that Forbes got it right about Fidel - but they might. Not saying Fidel is worth $400 million, it could be a fracken million — heck, even $500,000 would make Fidel rich as Croesus relative to ‘his people.’ The mass of people who are stuck in economic amber dating back 50 years. ‘Time warp’ really doesn’t do justice to the state of Cuba - as I understand it. So the question could be - does Fidel take over and above what’s needed in his role as ‘Perpetual Head of State?’ For example, does he really need the fleet of luxury cars reported by some? So, as Forbes said – when attempting to determine a dictator’s wealth, especially one that really would rather not have that wealth disclosed, sometimes it’s more art than hard evidence. It’s certain that Cuba isn’t the top producer of signs reading “Private Property” – and I’m certain that even if Fidel controls the businesses cited by Forbes, it’s not going to be recorded in the Havana Register’s Office under the name Fidel Castro. So – yes, Fidel’s net worth is the OP’s debate, and it is beginning to appear that because of the nature of the beast - conjecture will have to do — ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/33 "2005-03-19T17:39:21Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Something similar would hold for Queen Elizabeth II. Different situation entirely. Elizabeth’s personal fortune, which is reportedly vast, exists entirely independently of her official role in the government of the UK. It’s mostly inherited wealth, I believe, and the income generated by inherited assets. She’d have it even if she weren’t queen. Her late sister was just as rich. Her sons who will not inherit the throne will have huge stacks of money too. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2005, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/34 "2005-03-19T21:00:50Z")
One website I really don’t recall suggested that it must be true. Castro’s immediate threats and arm waving fall right into the same camp as many other secretive but super-rich men. On the other hand, those who don’t make the list supposedly often make a point of trying to get on it. ---
**Author:** ![ouryL](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ouryl/32/6067_2.png) [@ouryL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ouryL)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/35 "2005-03-22T04:19:45Z")
Let’s see $550 million divided by 11.5 people = $47 each. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Aro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b3f665/32.png) [@Aro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aro)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/36 "2005-03-22T10:50:52Z")
This [short thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=272551&highlight=Castro) has a synopsis of my opinion on this matter. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/37 "2005-03-22T11:05:29Z")
I’m wondering what happened to the rest. Only a few short years ago he had a trillion dollar bill. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/38 "2005-03-22T14:57:24Z")
> [@Aro](#): > > This [short thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=272551&highlight=Castro) has a synopsis of my opinion on this matter. I accidently posted this in the thread to linked — so I’ll say it again – thanks for the link to the article. I wasn’t aware of either that article or the specific allegations made. Here’s a direct link to that article for those who are interested – > **[123cuba.com is for sale | HugeDomains](https://www.hugedomains.com/domain_profile.cfm?d=123cuba&e=com)** > > 100% satisfaction guaranteed on every domain we sell. 30-day, no questions asked, money-back guarantee. Easy, fast and convenient shopping. ---
**Author:** ![Tigers2B1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc29f/32.png) [@Tigers2B1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tigers2B1)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/39 "2005-03-22T15:02:09Z")
> [@ouryL](#): > > Let’s see $550 million divided by 11.5 people = $47 each. 😃 You’re either the second or third person in this thread to post this and I’m not sure why. Certainly it can’t be your position that _'it’s OK to steal (if that’s what’s happened) if the per capita sounds small – (i.e. in this case isn’t over 50 dollars?)_ Hence - big organization makes it OK to steal a lot? Or, and more likely, — if you spread a lot of money over a lot of people it doesn’t look like a lot anymore – hence that money really can’t make a difference in the lives of those involved. I think that’s whats being said - no? Note though that 550 million can provide a number of necessary and needed services, for example - build facilities and/or provide services that save peoples lives. So again – I’m missing the points of these types of posts ---- ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [March 22, 2005, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150/40 "2005-03-22T15:52:29Z")
**Tigers:** _So again – I’m missing the points of these types of posts ----_ Well, speaking as one of the people who posted the calculation you refer to, I was simply crunching the numbers on **xt** ’s bet that “redistributing that $550 million would give the folks some extra spending cash”. Nobody’s suggesting that it’s okay to steal, or that the morality of stealing depends on how big the amount of money is. However, nothing in the discussion so far has demonstrated that Castro even **has** the money in question. All we’ve got so far are claims that a certain amount of Cuba’s assets and/or financial “reserves” should be counted as Castro’s personal wealth, with no details as to how this conclusion was arrived at. AFAICT, it’s also not clear that Castro is in fact **using** any of this alleged fortune for his own personal purposes. As already pointed out, he’s never had a particularly upscale lifestyle, and at nearly **80 years old** , he’s not likely ever to leave Cuba and go into luxurious retirement. He’ll probably spend the next 5–10 years in his same upper-classish Havana residence,\* wearing his same dreary olive-green uniforms, and then kick the bucket and get a state-funded funeral. So what’s the use of having tons of money, as far as he’s concerned? I’m not a Castro supporter and don’t have any particularly high opinion of his ethics, but I simply don’t see what would be the practical point of his stealing hundreds of millions of dollars from the Cuban people. If you believe that Castro **does** have this large personal fortune, can you offer some suggestions as to why you think he got it, and whether or how he will ever make use of it? **xt:** \* Its kind of a weak arguement anyway to say Castro doesn’t need the money therefor he doesn’t have it…some folks amass fortunes just because they can, or they like too…or for the power it gives them.\* I suppose that’s possible, but Castro’s already **got** plenty of power irrespective of personal wealth, doesn’t he? Does anybody have a more cogent potential motive for Castro’s alleged ill-gotten fortune than “well, maybe he just likes to have money”? - A 2002 [expose](http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/smCuggled.htm) of smuggled videotapes of Castro’s compound tried to describe it as a hidden haven of luxury, but by richest-people-in-the-world standards it sounds pretty downmarket: > [@](#): > > The videos, which show the communist leader preparing for a sumptuous banquet and lounging on leather sofas in his villa in Havana, give the first peek into the residence which most Cubans have never seen. […] It pictures the spacious compound and carefully landscaped garden and reveals that many of the family are wearing designer clothes. The house is decorated with wooden chests and Cuban handicrafts. A large-screen television monitors foreign news channels. Heh, so he’s got leather sofas, a landscaped garden, and a large-screen television. This is definitely a lifestyle of sybaritic luxury by the standards of the average Cuban, for sure. But as **LMM** pointed out, it’s no big deal by world-leader standards, and it certainly doesn’t require any half-billion bucks of private wealth to support it. So again, if he **does** have half a billion bucks, what’s the point? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/castro-listed-among-richest-people/295150.md?page=3)