# Catalonia: what if there's a pragmatic but brutal response? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026 "2017-10-27T22:16:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/1 "2017-10-27T22:16:30Z")
So Dopers, imagine that Madrid responds to Catalonia’s declaration of independence by sending the troops in? Imagine further that the leaders of the independence movement are simply killed. No trial, just killed. Be they politicians, businesspeople, retired, whatever. Their assets are sequestrated and their families left destitute. How would you react? Would it be different if the leaders were the just top 100 or the top 1,000 or the top 10,000? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/2 "2017-10-27T22:25:42Z")
Look up the meaning of the word “pragmatic.” Heck, I’ll do it for you. > [@](#): > > dealing with things _sensibly and realistically_ in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations. ---
**Author:** ![lisiate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/3 "2017-10-27T22:34:01Z")
Judging by how Madrid reacted to the referendum I’d say a ‘forceful’ response is pretty much a given at this stage. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/4 "2017-10-27T23:17:56Z")
It should be a forceful response. Secessionist movements need to be squashed. An overly forceful response would not be productive. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/5 "2017-10-27T23:19:21Z")
Well if Madrid that Catalonia (& the Basque Country for that matter) would be completely justified in violently seceding from Spain. Also Spain could kiss EU membership goodbye. Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/6 "2017-10-27T23:20:46Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Look up the meaning of the word “pragmatic.” Heck, I’ll do it for you. So, now you think that my scenario is indeed pragmatic, what would be your reaction? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2017, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/7 "2017-10-27T23:22:55Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Well if Madrid that Catalonia (& the Basque Country for that matter) would be completely justified in violently seceding from Spain. Also Spain could kiss EU membership goodbye. Really? How about the precedent of America 1865: Union vs Confederacy? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/8 "2017-10-28T00:35:43Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? How about the precedent of America 1865: Union vs Confederacy? 600,000 dead and a section of the country destroyed. That’s a precedent we can all live with. Oh, wait. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/9 "2017-10-28T00:50:32Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? How about the precedent of America 1865: Union vs Confederacy? Has the Catalan government opened fire on a Spanish military installation? Semi-informed American response to the whole crisis. YMMV. I think the Catalan secessionists have not always acted in good faith here. (Both of the seemingly overwhelming votes for independence, in the popular referendum and in the regional parliamentary vote, are marred by the facts that opponents of secession seem to have boycotted both of those votes.) I think the Spanish government has also at times been very ham-handed in its response. But the central government straight up murdering a bunch of people would not even remotely be a “pragmatic” response. If anything would guarantee that this political crisis develops into a full-blown civil war (I suppose more likely consisting of “urban guerilla” warfare and/or terrorism than pitched battles between armies), that would surely be it. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/10 "2017-10-28T00:54:09Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Look up the meaning of the word “pragmatic.” Heck, I’ll do it for you. I think the OP is using the term in the sense of “guaranteed to start a bloody Civil War”. You have to look further down the list in the dictionary to find that one. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/11 "2017-10-28T01:05:24Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I think the OP is using the term in the sense of “guaranteed to start a bloody Civil War”. You have to look further down the list in the dictionary to find that one. Catalanocide is the term I believe he’s looking for. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/12 "2017-10-28T01:10:19Z")
Democratic governance depends on the consent of the governed. When the governed don’t consent to be governed anymore, you can sometimes force them to shut up, but then you don’t have democratic governance anymore, you have tyranny. Secession, handled democratically and in good faith, is an option. Secession carried out by violence is only justified when the seceding polity isn’t represented in the government. If your region has one vote and the other regions have 8 votes, and a vote goes against you, that’s not justification for secession. When the other regions execute your people without trial, then suddenly you have justification for violent resistance. And how exactly do you think extrajudicial murder of pro-secession leaders is going to work? Like, you call up some soldiers and tell them to go over and kill a couple hundred people? How exactly do these soldiers expect to avoid murder charges? How exactly do the leaders who order the murders expect to avoid murder charges? Murder is a crime in just about every country, you know, and murdering your political opponents is frowned on in most civilized societies. In fact, that’s the difference between living in a civilized country and an uncivilized country. In nekulturny Russia, you can just have annoying people killed without trial, and face no consequences. This is what makes Russia nekulturny. Is Spain supposed to be a liberal democracy with the rule of law? Or a fascist dictatorship? Spain tried the fascist dictatorship thing for quite a long time, ask some random Spaniards if they want to go back to Francoism. If Mariano Rajoy can pick up the phone and get a bunch of soldiers to murder a couple hundred Catalonian separatist leaders, and get away with it, then he’s not the elected leader of a democratic country, he’s a fascist dictator. You think if he has to power to murder Catalonian separatists with impunity that he’s only going to use that power against separatists? I mean, if you can murder people and get away with it, murdering journalists who annoy you is a pretty good idea, as well as murdering people from opposing political parties, cops who try to investigate your crimes, people who don’t pay the bribe money, and on and on. Is Spain going to be the type of country where annoying people are killed by government Death Squads? Or not? Because if it’s going to be a Death Squad type of country, that’s going to have some pretty far reaching consequences. Like being kicked out of Europe at the least. Where’s your pragmatism now? ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/13 "2017-10-28T01:16:53Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Really? How about the precedent of America 1865: Union vs Confederacy? What precedent? When did the American government round up shoot and bunch of southern political leaders? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/14 "2017-10-28T01:21:28Z")
And it wouldn’t just be Catalonia. You think the Basques are going to sit still while hundreds of people are executed, without a trial, by the government in Madrid? I don’t know how things are in Galicia, or other areas of Spain, but this does not just get contained in the Northeast of the country. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/15 "2017-10-28T01:22:25Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It should be a forceful response. Secessionist movements need to be squashed. An overly forceful response would not be productive. Depends on the secessionist movement. If they’re democratic and respect the rule of law, forceful squashing is unprincipled and undemocratic. After all, what did Britain’s attempt at forceful squashing of those irritating colonists get it? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/16 "2017-10-28T01:32:19Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It should be a forceful response. Secessionist movements need to be squashed. An overly forceful response would not be productive. Sounds like you want to squash the leaders in order to quash the movement. But not squash them too badly. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/17 "2017-10-28T01:47:34Z")
Squash some of them, and simply quash the rest? ---
**Author:** ![FlikTheBlue](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fliktheblue/32/10972_2.png) [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/18 "2017-10-28T02:00:14Z")
Regarding the referendum held earlier this month in Catalonia, my understanding is that the vote was boycotted by those that were against independence. What was the purpose of boycotting that vote? It seems if those folks had turned up at the polls and voted against independence that the current situation could have been avoided. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/19 "2017-10-28T02:00:36Z")
I support Catalonian independence in theory, but it’s not my business. Internal Spanish affair. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026/20 "2017-10-28T02:50:54Z")
> [@alphaboi867](#): > > Also Spain could kiss EU membership goodbye. Heard of Brexit? Now say hello to MassExit. If the EU becomes an instrument by which it’s members states are broken up, it won’t last till the end of that week. They are going to issue boiler plate declarations and that’s it. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catalonia-what-if-theres-a-pragmatic-but-brutal-response/800026.md?page=2)