# Catch-All Dio Pitting **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2011, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997 "2011-04-11T20:04:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/501 "2011-04-18T23:00:28Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > Same argument in two threads? Well I guess I can post here what I posted there, but with less great-debatey language. In a nutshell there’s support for **Dio’s** position regarding Passover rituals being for atonement although I wouldn’t call it a fair description of the ritual. It was foremost about the remembrance/community building. Probably the best support there is for the atonement interpretation takes the form of [Ezekiel Chapter 45, verses 21-23](http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ezekiel+45-48&version=NIV)In the 2000+ years since the destruction of the second temple it’s been 99%+ about the community and remembrance aspects and the atonement aspect has pretty much gone by the wayside in modern Jewish practice, but Passover as was celebrated during the ancient times was a time for reflection and community bonding with a side of atonement. > > Enjoy, > Steven Keep it in one thread. And don’t cite a Christian Bible when you’re trying to make a point about Jewish history. That just bleeds ignorance. Here is a [link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13701707#post13701707) to the thread where I point out that you have no point with your cite because you missed the boat of the argument. Dio changed the entire meaning of the holiday with a sentence. Your post is like saying, “Well…I got the 1 and the 2 right, and I knew I was supposed to add, and I wrote the formula down, so I pretty much knew what I was doing!” on a failed math test. cheers JoyAnn ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/502 "2011-04-18T23:14:10Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > She’s some new stalker that’s been following me around the board trying pick fights. She’s not very bright or informed and is persistently dishonest as well. She thinks I made up the Paschal lamb. Whatever. Can you please give some cites? Where am I dishonest? Where do I claim you made up the paschal lamb? I don’t want to call you a liar so I’ll just say you project untruths. ---
**Author:** ![Invisible\_Chimp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@Invisible\_Chimp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Invisible_Chimp)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/503 "2011-04-18T23:23:16Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > For someone who signed up to this board less than a month ago, you sure seem invested in this Dio issue, CP. CitizenPained and Dio share an interest in debating religion, so they’ve butted heads a lot in a short time. If she is Packers fan, slept with a guy in his twenties when she was a teen, or thinks kids aren’t pure and perfect, then they will be mortal enemies in no time. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/504 "2011-04-18T23:36:28Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Here’s a hint: When you are jumping up and down in excitement over a gotcha ya moment regarding Dio’s incorrect description of a ritual involving the sacrifice of an unblemished lamb, it might be helpful to be more clear that you’re overwrought about the less eye catching part about whether it was done for atonement or not. Especially when you are asked what part in particular it was that he got wrong. > > Otherwise you end up looking like a punctilious dumbass with a certificate in Jewish studies. > > Nice harpoon there, Capt. Ahab. So wait, I wasn’t confused before, but now I am. So there _was_ a lamb sacrifice involved historically in Passover?\* But the liturgical and theological point was conflated by Dio with a different sacrifice, that is: atonement versus remembrance? And all the snarky comments and argument from authority is over that? Is that the upshot? \*Exodus 12? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/505 "2011-04-18T23:40:54Z")
> [@Invisible\_Chimp](#): > > CitizenPained and Dio share an interest in debating religion, so they’ve butted heads a lot in a short time. If she is Packers fan, slept with a guy in his twenties when she was a teen, or thinks kids aren’t pure and perfect, then they will be mortal enemies in no time. All this motherfucking thread is worth now!!! I’d like to subscribe to your newsletter. (Can she read horoscopes?) ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 18, 2011, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/506 "2011-04-18T23:44:11Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > Keep it in one thread. If you had stopped here we could have, but you didn’t. > [@CitizenPained](#): > > And don’t cite a Christian Bible when you’re trying to make a point about Jewish history. That just bleeds ignorance. Here is a [link](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=13701707#post13701707) to the thread where I point out that you have no point with your cite because you missed the boat of the argument. Firstly, there is no significant difference between Christian and Jewish versions of Ezekiel. Feel free to [look it up yourself](http://www.breslov.com/bible/Ezekiel45.htm#21). The boat of the argument was apparently your nitpick about the purpose behind the sacrifice. I say nitpick because while it would be a major error when discussing the historical ritual of Passover specifically, you called it out in a thread challenging the validity of religion in general. **Diogenes the Cynic’s** point was that religious rituals don’t make sense and he was using the slaughter of a lamb for atonement as an example of something that doesn’t make sense for a non-corporeal, omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent god to require. For some reason you decided the deck chairs on the Titanic weren’t in a reasonable order, and so here we are. In the context of the thread, as a meta-thread about all of the inconsistencies and weirdness of religion, your zealous insistence on clarifying this point, now spanning two threads, about the true purpose of the sacrificial lamb seems to be adding weight to the argument that religion is irrational. The point was that slaughtering animals and sprinkling their blood on an altar makes no sense OVERALL. Splitting hairs as to which religious purpose people have traditionally used to justify the sacrifice ignores the larger point of it being a nonsensical thing to do at all. Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/507 "2011-04-19T00:12:49Z")
I answered this stuff in the other thread. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/508 "2011-04-19T00:26:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I answered this stuff in the other thread. I’m sorry, this is Insults. Arguments are next door. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/509 "2011-04-19T00:53:04Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > So wait, I wasn’t confused before, but now I am. > > So there _was_ a lamb sacrifice involved historically in Passover?\* But the liturgical and theological point was conflated by Dio with a different sacrifice, that is: atonement versus remembrance? And all the snarky comments and argument from authority is over that? Is that the upshot? > > \*Exodus 12? Essentially, yes. Got it in one. Dio stuck his foot in it, and is now in “goalpost moving” mode. As someone said, a few posts previous to yours, (paraphrased) 'Here ya go, everyone who thinks Dio is infallible on biblical matters". This is amusing. ---
**Author:** ![Capitaine\_Zombie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e95f7d/32.png) [@Capitaine\_Zombie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capitaine_Zombie)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/510 "2011-04-19T00:58:19Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Essentially, yes. Got it in one. Dio stuck his foot in it, and is now in “goalpost moving” mode. As someone said, a few posts previous to yours, (paraphrased) 'Here ya go, everyone who thinks Dio is infallible on biblical matters". This is amusing. The thing is _everybody_ is on goalpost moving mode. Considering most of the people involved are way over thirty, it’s kind of sad and pathetic. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/511 "2011-04-19T01:09:00Z")
> [@Mtgman](#): > > … > The point was that slaughtering animals and sprinkling their blood on an altar makes no sense OVERALL. Splitting hairs as to which religious purpose people have traditionally used to justify the sacrifice ignores the larger point of it being a nonsensical thing to do at all. > > Enjoy, > Steven And bringing up rituals they (the Jews, here) followed as late as almost 2000 years ago, and haven’t followed since that time, but equating it with Christian rituals that are still followed to this day, makes his point, how? If you are going to argue for Dio, kindly tell us his alleged point, too, please. Otherwise, let him fight his own battles, and live or die by his own sword. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/512 "2011-04-19T01:18:13Z")
My point was that the conception of the crucifixion as an atoning sacrifice was based on on an interpretation of Jesus as a surrogate for the Paschal lamb. That is a motherfucking GQ fact, son. I also made a comment that at the root of everything (going back to, and preceding Jewish ritual sacrifices) is an archaic belief that sky gods want dead animals. The basic, primitive silliness of that runs subsequently through Judaism and is present in Christology. When you strip everything away, that’s what you’re left with - “gods want meat,” and that was my ultimate point. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/513 "2011-04-19T02:07:46Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > My point was that the conception of the crucifixion as an atoning sacrifice was based on on an interpretation of Jesus as a surrogate for the Paschal lamb. That is a motherfucking GQ fact, son. Yes, Dio. I’m aware of the Christian interpretation of “The Last Supper”, as a riff off of the “Passover” it allegedly occurred during. But that was because Paul needed to, somehow, equate “Atonement” with Jewish theology, for his brand of Christianity to go over with his actual audience. It ain’t “GQ”, unless you insist that every idiot Christian sect that comes along gets “GQ fact” status. Yours only barely corresponds with standard middle-ages Catholicism. You are missing the Jewish idea behind the Paschal lamb. It’s _not_ an atonement. It never _was_ an atonement. It’s a blood-sacrifice, true, but it’s blood is solely to mark the Egyptians from the Jews. The blood marks the doorposts of the people the plagues will “Pass Over”, and that’s all it did. Paul did, indeed, try to make the connection between “Passover” and “Atonement”, but he was trying to score points with the Jewish population that he had previously been **actively fucking persecuting**. Look, Dio, either you accept your own statement that you are dealing with fiction, and then look at Paul as a scammer, or you abandon the idea that it was fiction, and Paul was sincere. You can’t have it both ways. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > I also made a comment that at the root of everything (going back to, and preceding Jewish ritual sacrifices) is an archaic belief that sky gods want dead animals. The basic, primitive silliness of that runs subsequently through Judaism and is present in Christology. When you strip everything away, that’s what you’re left with - “gods want meat,” and that was my ultimate point. Yes, a 2000 or more year old point. What’s your point? I’m not getting it. Who’s doing these animal sacrifices, today, that I should care? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/514 "2011-04-19T03:46:44Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Yes, Dio. I’m aware of the Christian interpretation of “The Last Supper”, as a riff off of the “Passover” it allegedly occurred during. But that was because Paul needed to, somehow, equate “Atonement” with Jewish theology, for his brand of Christianity to go over with his actual audience. It wasn’t Paul, it was the Gospel of John. Paul had a different conception of Jesus as the “first fruit” harbinger of the mass resurrection, > [@](#): > > It ain’t “GQ”, unless you insist that every idiot Christian sect that comes along gets “GQ fact” status. Every Christian sect uses the Gospel of John. It is absolutely a dead solid GQ answer that Jesus is a Paschal surrogate in Christian theology. > [@](#): > > Yours only barely corresponds with standard middle-ages Catholicism. It’s not mine, imbecile, it’s the Gospel of John. It’s not middle ages. You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about and I do. You should shut your fucking cakehole and try to to learn something. > [@](#): > > You are missing the Jewish idea behind the Paschal lamb. It’s _not_ an atonement. Wrong. Incorrect, Misinformed. That’s not all it was, but that’s PART of waht it was, and that’s what John seized on. > [@](#): > > It never _was_ an atonement. It’s a blood-sacrifice, true, but it’s blood is solely to mark the Egyptians from the Jews. Wrong. Incorrect. Misinformed. > [@](#): > > The blood marks the doorposts of the people the plagues will “Pass Over”, and that’s all it did. Paul did, indeed, try to make the connection between “Passover” and “Atonement”, but he was trying to score points with the Jewish population that he had previously been **actively fucking persecuting**. It wasn’t Paul, dumbshit. It was the Gospel of John. You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. Why are you flapping your mouth? > [@](#): > > Yes, a 2000 or more year old point. What’s your point? I’m not getting it. Who’s doing these animal sacrifices, today, that I should care? It was an answer to OP’s question in that thread, halfwit. It was answer as to the theological origin of atoning sacrifice. I never said anyone was doing animal sacrifices NOW, I was saying that Christian soteriology is rooted in the same primitive assumptions. ---
**Author:** ![Wile\_E](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c37758/32.png) [@Wile\_E](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wile_E)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/515 "2011-04-19T05:39:33Z")
Has anyone proposed the term “Dio-rrhea” for these kind of threads? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/516 "2011-04-19T05:49:38Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > I really don’t care about Dio and his Dio-railments. I just don’t like his claim to be a “historian” of “Jewish history” based on his “knowledge of Greek”. Makey no sense. After getting into two rounds of his shit, I decided you guys weren’t just picking on him. He also does seem to get a bit of a pass on the arbitrary forum “rules”. > > Yeah, being a newbie can have its benefits. I don’t have five years of Doper history to cloud my judgment. 😃 Whatever you say. But you strike me as a concern-troll and a rules lawyer. You signed up three weeks ago and have a 37 ppd count. I’m pretty sure you’re a sock of a banned poster, but whatever. You are an idiot and suck at defending Judaism. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/517 "2011-04-19T06:50:03Z")
OK, I’m really sorry Dio got to have all the attention in his own Pit thread. I’m was OK with keeping it in the other thread and I stuck my reply in there, but now it’s here, so I’ll scoot my tootie over there, though Cheshire pretty much summed it up re: Atonement Holiday: Dem’s da fax and ya got em wrong. The thing is, I just can’t drop it without some kind of defense because then it looks like Dio’s creative memory is correct. Blarney. [There](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13703432&postcount=139) it is if anyone remembers what the original debate was over at this point. Sorry. I get cranky without leavened bread. :o Also Dio: We ate the lamb. 😉 > [@](#): > > I also made a comment that at the root of everything (going back to, and preceding Jewish ritual sacrifices) is an archaic belief that sky gods want dead animals. The basic, primitive silliness of that runs subsequently through Judaism and is present in Christology. When you strip everything away, that’s what you’re left with - “gods want meat,” and that was my ultimate point. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/518 "2011-04-19T06:55:05Z")
> [@Larry\_Borgia](#): > > Whatever you say. But you strike me as a concern-troll and a rules lawyer. You signed up three weeks ago and have a 37 ppd count. Easy to rack up a post count when talking to Dio. > [@](#): > > I’m pretty sure you’re a sock of a banned poster, but whatever. Negative. I’m a twenty seven year old female who lives in Denver, Colorado. > [@](#): > > You are an idiot :dubious: I’m rubber; you’re glue…? > [@](#): > > and suck at defending Judaism. Calling someone out on their inaccurate ‘fact’ about ancient history is _not_ being a defender of Judaism, and besides, Finn and Bricker seem to have those titles already. 🙂 If you would like to Pit me, maybe just start a new thread? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 10:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/519 "2011-04-19T10:58:17Z")
> [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Essentially, yes. Got it in one. Dio stuck his foot in it, and is now in “goalpost moving” mode. As someone said, a few posts previous to yours, (paraphrased) 'Here ya go, everyone who thinks Dio is infallible on biblical matters". This is amusing. Holy Moses, that’s a high ratio of vitriol to value. Welcome to the Dope, **CitizenPained** , you’re gonna fit right in. > [@Invisible\_Chimp](#): > > CitizenPained and Dio share an interest in debating religion, so they’ve butted heads a lot in a short time. If she is Packers fan, slept with a guy in his twenties when she was a teen, or thinks kids aren’t pure and perfect, then they will be mortal enemies in no time. If this goes Hollywood-style, they’ll be falling into each others arms at a Dopefest a few years from now. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 19, 2011, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997/520 "2011-04-19T11:14:35Z")
> [@CitizenPained](#): > > OK, I’m really sorry Dio got to have all the attention in his own Pit thread. I’m was OK with keeping it in the other thread and I stuck my reply in there, but now it’s here, What the fuck? Gee, it just kind of got here? Or did you resuscitate a dying thread with your post [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13701723&postcount=475), in which you breathlessly informed everyone that “Dio just made up a new Jewish holiday.” > [@](#): > > so I’ll scoot my tootie over there, though Cheshire pretty much summed it up re: Atonement Holiday: Dem’s da fax and ya got em wrong. The thing is, I just can’t drop it without some kind of defense because then it looks like Dio’s creative memory is correct. Blarney. [There](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=13703432&postcount=139) it is if anyone remembers what the original debate was over at this point. Even engaging with you in limited discussion has this sticky, yucky feeling. Kind of like wrestling with a tarbaby, or with the inappropriate scout master. Seems like you might be looking for more from this board than a debate. Maybe you’re like one of those apocryphal Western US eagles, looking to lock talons in a free-falling death fuck. Regardless, I do appreciate you and **Cheshire Human** offering up a pitch perfect parody of what the Dio Show really is. You make it very easy for he rest of the SDMB to resolve the dilemma I mentioned above. I’d much rather you all kept this kind of shit restricted to the Snark Pit. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catch-all-dio-pitting/577997.md?page=27)