# Catcher drops third strike. Batter starts running. Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 14, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671 "2005-09-14T21:54:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/1 "2005-09-14T21:54:05Z")
Millions, Alright. I know the batter starts running because the ball is live in this situation, but why? This rule seems to be without purpose, at least to me, the fairly casual observer. Unlike the bunting with two strikes rule (presumably to stop batters from tiring out pitchers with ad naseum bunting), I see no reason that a dropped third strike should allow a batter to scurry towards first. And, seeing as how this rarely results in anything other than the batter being thrown out, why is this rule in the books? Was there a specific instance that it was borne from? Maybe I should just go back to basketball… ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/2 "2005-09-14T22:03:42Z")
Well I got [this explanation](http://www.officialforum.com/printthread.php?threadid=8309) online. > [@](#): > > When you understand what is behind the rule, then it is easier to understand it’s application. > > First - contrary to popular opinion, a batter is not out on a third strike - they must be put out. The easiest way is for the catcher to catch the ball in flight. Then the batter is out an instant after the 3rd strike. In flight means directly from the pitcher to the catcher; that low pitch in the dirt that the catcher short-hops cleanly is NOT in-flight. So - if the ball touches the ground, or the catcher drops the ball, or misses it totally the batter has not been put out (though she now has 3 strikes on her). > > There are other options to put her out. Tag her with the ball, tag 1B with the ball, or she leaves the field of play (goes through the fence). > > When that the batter is running, she is forcing a runner already on 1B to second. That would give the defense an unfair advantage to get two outs (throw to 2B, relay to 1B) when they only deserved one out (the strike-out). (Imagine that the bases are loaded, runners not running, catcher deliberately drops 3rd strike, steps on home, throws to 3B, relay to 2B. 3 outs!) > > So, if a runner is on 1B, the batter is automatically out on the 3rd strike - caught or un-caught - so that the runner is not forced to advance. > > Finally, if you already have two outs, the defense can not get a double play, so then they still have to put out the batter. > > Hope that helps. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/3 "2005-09-14T22:58:20Z")
Do they have to put out the batter? What if there are runners on first and second, forced to run by the scurrying batter, and the catcher for whatever reason finds it easier to throw to third? ---
**Author:** ![Birdmonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/71e660/32.png) [@Birdmonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Birdmonster)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/4 "2005-09-14T23:12:15Z")
The runners on 1st & 2nd, apparently, just sit there. A third strike is an automatic out with them on base. Of course, if it was a wild pitch (that was also a strike) they’d be able to run. I’m still a little iffy on the explanation, but Gangster Octopus’s source certainly helped. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/5 "2005-09-14T23:13:28Z")
The batter is out automatically on strike three if there are less than two outs and a runner on first. The rule about catching the third strike is very, very, very, very old in baseball. It’s based on the theory that a fielder has to catch the ball to make an out. For a very long time, catching the third strike, especially on the fly, when the catcher was standing several feet behind the batter and not using a glove, was no mean feat. ---
**Author:** ![Petey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f1d935/32.png) [@Petey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Petey)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2005, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/6 "2005-09-14T23:15:23Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Do they have to put out the batter? What if there are runners on first and second, forced to run by the scurrying batter, and the catcher for whatever reason finds it easier to throw to third? If there are 2 outs, and first base is occupied, yes, the defense can put out any runner. I’ve seen 2 outs and bases loaded, after a dropped 3rd strike, the catcher just stepped on home plate for the out. If there are less than 2 outs and first base is occupied, the batter is out on a dropped third strike. There is no need to tag him out. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 2:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/7 "2005-09-15T02:43:33Z")
> [@Birdmonster](#): > > Millions, > Alright. I know the batter starts running because the ball is live in this situation, but why? This rule seems to be without purpose, at least to me, the fairly casual observer. Unlike the bunting with two strikes rule (presumably to stop batters from tiring out pitchers with ad naseum bunting), I see no reason that a dropped third strike should allow a batter to scurry towards first. And, seeing as how this rarely results in anything other than the batter being thrown out, why is this rule in the books? Was there a specific instance that it was borne from? Maybe I should just go back to basketball… By tradition (like so much in baseball), an out is not counted unless the ball is caught and the ball is cleanly taken out of the glove. Although extremely rare, I have seen cases where a fielder has caught a ball then dropped it will pulling it out of the glove. In these cases, there is no out and the ball is live. I suspect the third strike/dropped ball is a variation on this. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/8 "2005-09-15T03:00:34Z")
If you’re taking the ball out of your glove and you drop it, it’s supposed to be an out though. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 3:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/9 "2005-09-15T03:21:04Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > If you’re taking the ball out of your glove and you drop it, it’s supposed to be an out though. If the feilder clearly is controlling the ball it’s a catch and an out regardless if he drops it later, ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/10 "2005-09-15T03:48:46Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > If you’re taking the ball out of your glove and you drop it, it’s supposed to be an out though. Nope. > [@MLB](#): > > A CATCHis the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught. In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball **and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional.** A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk. If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is “held up” and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed. Emphasis added Clearly dropping the ball while taking it out of the glove nullifies the catch and I have seen this ruling made in a game. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/11 "2005-09-15T04:54:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by MLB > A CATCHis the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball. It is not a catch if a fielder touches a fly ball which then hits a member of the offensive team or an umpire and then is caught by another defensive player. **If the fielder has made the catch and drops the ball while in the act of making a throw following the catch, the ball shall be adjudged to have been caught.** In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. A catch is legal if the ball is finally held by any fielder, even though juggled, or held by another fielder before it touches the ground. Runners may leave their bases the instant the first fielder touches the ball. A fielder may reach over a fence, railing, rope or other line of demarcation to make a catch. He may jump on top of a railing, or canvas that may be in foul ground. No interference should be allowed when a fielder reaches over a fence, railing, rope or into a stand to catch a ball. He does so at his own risk. If a fielder, attempting a catch at the edge of the dugout, is “held up” and kept from an apparent fall by a player or players of either team and the catch is made, it shall be allowed. I think we were thinking of different things. I was thinking of the part I bolded. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 4:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/12 "2005-09-15T04:55:57Z")
Or would have bolded if I put the tags in right… ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/13 "2005-09-15T05:33:04Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > Or would have bolded if I put the tags in right… But back to the original topic, a dropped thrid strike would not complete the out just like a dropped catch in the field does not complete the out. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2005, 8:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/14 "2005-09-15T08:14:16Z")
The dropped third strike rule was in the original [Knickerbocker Rules of 1845](http://www.baseball-almanac.com/rule11.shtml) (the Knickerbocker Club is supposed to have had the first written set of rules for baseball): **Three balls being struck at and missed and the last one caught, is a hand-out; if not caught is considered fair, and the striker bound to run.** In those days the catcher stood several feet behind the batter and typically caught the pitch after it bounced. Catching a third strike on the fly was sort of equivalent to catching a fly ball. If you go back far enough baseball had no balls and strikes. The pitcher was expected to throw hittable pitches, and the batter was expected to swing at them. There was nothing to force a batter to swing at pitches he didn’t like. Also, a batter could swing and miss any number of times without being out. Eventually strikes were added to the game to force each at-bat to come to a conclusion (I suspect some batters were being very picky about which pitches they would swing at). The original idea of a strikeout was that, if the batter failed to put the ball in play after a certain number of swings, you would just treat it as if it were in play. Called strikes (as opposed to swinging strikes) and balls (and bases-on-balls) were added later, again with the idea of forcing each at-bat to come to a conclusion. Several here have noted that the batter is automatically out on a third strike when first base is occupied and there are fewer than two out. This is to prevent the catcher from getting an easy double play by allowing the ball to hit the ground. If the batter were allowed to try for first base in this situation, the runner already at first would have to go to second, creating a force play there. A quick-thinking catcher could throw to second for one out, and whoever was covering second could throw to first for the second out (assuming the batter-runner didn’t beat the throw). ---
**Author:** ![Bismillah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3e96dc/32.png) [@Bismillah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bismillah)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/15 "2005-09-17T04:23:58Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > Do they have to put out the batter? What if there are runners on first and second, forced to run by the scurrying batter, and the catcher for whatever reason finds it easier to throw to third? Huh huh huh, you said “put out.” ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/16 "2005-09-17T16:28:18Z")
And, for what it’s worth, it does sometimes happen that the catcher’s throw to first is not caught for one reason or another, and the batter is safe despite having gotten 3 strikes. In fact, I saw it happen in a Yankees game not too long ago. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/17 "2005-09-17T16:28:28Z")
> [@Jeff Lichtman](#): > > If you go back far enough baseball had no balls and strikes. The pitcher was expected to throw hittable pitches, and the batter was expected to swing at them. There was nothing to force a batter to swing at pitches he didn’t like. I was going to mention this very thing. Well done! Grumble, grumble. In fact, the striker was even allowed to call whether he wanted a high pitch or a low pitch thrown. But yes, to prevent the striker from standing around all day watching the pitcher tire himself out, they implemented rules like “hey, you coulda swang at that” (i.e., strikes). Balls and the third strike rule were probably a result of “hey, I’da swang at that if’n you’da gave me something good to hit.” Schoolyard rules, basically, but written by lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/18 "2005-09-17T17:32:18Z")
> [@SaintCad](#): > > Nope. > Emphasis added > Clearly dropping the ball while taking it out of the glove nullifies the catch and I have seen this ruling made in a game. In a similar case, I remember watching a Cubs game about 15 years back when a batter hit the ball into the outfield and the centerfielder (I believe) made a spectacular catch, but injured himself in the process. Another outfielder came over, took the ball out of the centerfielder’s mitt, and threw it into the infield. It was deemed a live ball, and not an out, because of the bolded part of your quote. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/19 "2005-09-17T19:23:20Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > In a similar case, I remember watching a Cubs game about 15 years back when a batter hit the ball into the outfield and the centerfielder (I believe) made a spectacular catch, but injured himself in the process. Another outfielder came over, took the ball out of the centerfielder’s mitt, and threw it into the infield. It was deemed a live ball, and not an out, because of the bolded part of your quote. You must (a) not remember this correctly, (b) not be describing it correctly, or (c) it was called incorrectly. I’m assuming here you mean the center fielder caught the ball and the ball did not touch the ground, the wall, etc, but remained in his glove. Then either the catch was complete before the injury (judgement call of the ump) or the catch was complete when the second outfielder controlled the ball. The batter would be out in either case. Now it is correct that the ball is live in the sense that it is still in play. It’s also true that any runners already on base could tag up and advance the moment the centerfileder first touched the ball so that the other fielder had to retrieve the ball and throw it in to stop the runners from advancing further. ---
**Author:** ![CC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CC)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/20 "2005-09-17T21:08:11Z")
Connected to the historical antecedents of such a rule is the fact that when a batter strikes out, it’s the catcher who is credited with the put-out. Dropping the third strike, then, is a way of negating that putout in much the same way that a first baseman could drop a throw and the runner would be safe. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671.md?page=2)