# Catcher drops third strike. Batter starts running. Why? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 14, 2005, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671 "2005-09-14T21:54:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/21 "2005-09-17T22:00:40Z")
As has been established in numerous posts to this thread, the dropped third strike which results in the batter reaching base does not constitute one of the three outs needed to retire the side. However, the strikeout does count in a pitcher’s individual statistics, as [this page](http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/feats19.shtml) illustrates. With bad enough fielders around him, a pitcher could theoretically record 100 strikeouts without getting out of an inning – or, indeed, having so much as one out recorded. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/22 "2005-09-17T22:30:20Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > You must (a) not remember this correctly, (b) not be describing it correctly, or (c) it was called incorrectly. I’m assuming here you mean the center fielder caught the ball and the ball did not touch the ground, the wall, etc, but remained in his glove. Then either the catch was complete before the injury (judgement call of the ump) or the catch was complete when the second outfielder controlled the ball. The batter would be out in either case. > > Now it is correct that the ball is live in the sense that it is still in play. It’s also true that any runners already on base could tag up and advance the moment the centerfileder first touched the ball so that the other fielder had to retrieve the ball and throw it in to stop the runners from advancing further. I tend with this interpretation. I saw a play where a fielder caught the ball, tossed it from his glove to another player to get a quick throw and double up the runner. The second fielder dropped the ball. Ruling - live ball since the _first_ fielder never took the ball out of the glove it is up to the \*second \* fielder to show control of the ball. I know that when a caught fly-ball is the third out, the teams run off the field and the fielder hold on to the ball until he can flip it to the ump. I wonder what the call would be if the ball is in his glove as he runs all the way from the outfield into the infield but he drops it getting it out his glove to give to the ump. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/23 "2005-09-17T22:32:41Z")
> [@Sternvogel](#): > > As has been established in numerous posts to this thread, the dropped third strike which results in the batter reaching base does not constitute one of the three outs needed to retire the side. However, the strikeout does count in a pitcher’s individual statistics, as [this page](http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/feats19.shtml) illustrates. With bad enough fielders around him, a pitcher could theoretically record 100 strikeouts without getting out of an inning – or, indeed, having so much as one out recorded. Isn’t there a pitcher that had 4 strikeouts in one inning? ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/24 "2005-09-17T22:59:20Z")
> [@SaintCad](#): > > I tend with this interpretation. I saw a play where a fielder caught the ball, tossed it from his glove to another player to get a quick throw and double up the runner. The second fielder dropped the ball. Ruling - live ball since the _first_ fielder never took the ball out of the glove it is up to the \*second \* fielder to show control of the ball. > > I know that when a caught fly-ball is the third out, the teams run off the field and the fielder hold on to the ball until he can flip it to the ump. I wonder what the call would be if the ball is in his glove as he runs all the way from the outfield into the infield but he drops it getting it out his glove to give to the ump. I cen tell you for sure that if the ball is controlled it’s a catch and an out. It does not matter if the fielder drops it later. But this is a judgement call by the ump. He can rule that if the fielder drops the ball when removing it from his glove, the fielder did not control it and no catch was made. Or he can rule it was a catch. Both rulings have been made countless times at all levels of baseball. I can’t imagine if an outfielder caught the ball and jogged into the infield then dropped the ball while takign it out of his glove on the mound that the ump would rule no catch – but it is a judgement call and he could and nothign could be done about it. Judgement calls can not be protested – argued yes, protested no. The ruling “live ball” is a complete red herring here. In baseball once the ball is pitched it remains live after any catch (unless the fielder falls into the stands or something). Runners can tag up and advance, they can be put out for failing to tag up. All of this requires a live ball. As for the later question, many pitchers have recorded four strike outs in one inning in the majors. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2005, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/25 "2005-09-17T23:18:45Z")
> [@SaintCad](#): > > Isn’t there a pitcher that had 4 strikeouts in one inning? [At least 46 of them](http://www.baseball-almanac.com/feats/feats19.shtml) ---
**Author:** ![PigBoy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/97f17d/32.png) [@PigBoy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PigBoy)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/26 "2005-09-18T00:01:32Z")
If I may hijack this a little further to ask a quick question… I want to know if this in any way reflects reality. In a baseball video game I’ve noticed that when the batter pops up a ball quite obviously into foul territory and a fielder is able to catch it, the batter will run toward first base while the fielder moves to make the catch. Is there actually any way to advance to first base on a foul ball? Or is it just a quirk of the computer game? (In watching actual baseball games, I guess I’ve always paid attention to the ball rather than the batter in such a situation, so I just can’t recall what actually happens.) ---
**Author:** ![MLS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/919ad9/32.png) [@MLS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MLS)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/27 "2005-09-18T00:09:27Z")
There might be a chance that the ball would NOT go foul, AND that the fielder would not catch it, so they often run if the outcome is in any way in doubt. The batter would feel pretty stupid if the ball turned fair, was not caught, but he got thrown out at first because he didn’t run. But usually, if the batter can see that the ball’s obviously going foul, he won’t run. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/28 "2005-09-18T02:02:33Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > The ruling “live ball” is a complete red herring here. In baseball once the ball is pitched it remains live after any catch (unless the fielder falls into the stands or something). Runners can tag up and advance, they can be put out for failing to tag up. All of this requires a live ball. It’s not a red herring fallacy, it was just bad wordage. I meant “no out” ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/29 "2005-09-18T14:21:15Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > You must (a) not remember this correctly, (b) not be describing it correctly, or (c) it was called incorrectly. I’m assuming here you mean the center fielder caught the ball and the ball did not touch the ground, the wall, etc, but remained in his glove. Then either the catch was complete before the injury (judgement call of the ump) or the catch was complete when the second outfielder controlled the ball. The batter would be out in either case. > > Now it is correct that the ball is live in the sense that it is still in play. It’s also true that any runners already on base could tag up and advance the moment the centerfileder first touched the ball so that the other fielder had to retrieve the ball and throw it in to stop the runners from advancing further. It is absolutely possible I’m misremembering it, but the only reason I remember it is because it was such an unusual play and the umpires met to confer about it. I thought the “voluntary and intentional” phrasing of the rule came into effect, and the hitter was not deemed out. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2005, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/30 "2005-09-18T18:28:45Z")
I do remember a play in a Dodgers-Giants game in San Francisco where, I believe, Lee Lacy of the Dodgers hit a fly ball that was caught by a Giants outfielder who collided with a teammate that knocked both of them to the ground. As the fielder who caught the ball fell over (he may have been unconscious), the ball fell out of his glove and Lacy circled the bases for a home run. The fielder (Jack Clark I think) probably had the ball in his glove for three seconds, but still didn’t have a “catch”. I was surprised a couple of years ago when Hee-Seop Choi of the Cubs (then) caught a popup, collided with a teammate and hit his head very hard and knocked him out. But he didn’t let go of the ball. Choi was out for a while with a severe concussion. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/31 "2005-09-19T02:05:19Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > I do remember a play in a Dodgers-Giants game in San Francisco where, I believe, Lee Lacy of the Dodgers hit a fly ball that was caught by a Giants outfielder who collided with a teammate that knocked both of them to the ground. As the fielder who caught the ball fell over (he may have been unconscious), the ball fell out of his glove and Lacy circled the bases for a home run. The fielder (Jack Clark I think) probably had the ball in his glove for three seconds, but still didn’t have a “catch”. > > I was surprised a couple of years ago when Hee-Seop Choi of the Cubs (then) caught a popup, collided with a teammate and hit his head very hard and knocked him out. But he didn’t let go of the ball. Choi was out for a while with a severe concussion. I think I’m going to have to digging in the papers to figure this out. I believe the play I’m thinking of involved Bob Dernier when he was on the Phillies (the second time 'round, in '88 or '89) against the Cubs at Philadelphia. It was Dernier making the catch and injuring himself. But I could be completely wrong. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/32 "2005-09-19T02:23:44Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > It is absolutely possible I’m misremembering it, but the only reason I remember it is because it was such an unusual play and the umpires met to confer about it. I thought the “voluntary and intentional” phrasing of the rule came into effect, and the hitter was not deemed out. As long as the ball doesn’t touch the ground, the wall etc. then another fielder can complete the catch. It has happened any number of times that the ball has hit one fielder and then was caught by another for an out. I’ve even seen the ball hit the pitcher’s raised foot and be caught by the shortstop for an out. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/33 "2005-09-19T02:35:53Z")
> [@OldGuy](#): > > As long as the ball doesn’t touch the ground, the wall etc. then another fielder can complete the catch. It has happened any number of times that the ball has hit one fielder and then was caught by another for an out. I’ve even seen the ball hit the pitcher’s raised foot and be caught by the shortstop for an out. But that wasn’t the issue at hand. This is: > [@](#): > > In establishing the validity of the catch, the fielder shall hold the ball long enough to prove that he has complete control of the ball and that his release of the ball is voluntary and intentional. Since another fielder came up to him and took the ball out of the mitt, it was ruled that his release of the ball was not “volunary and intential,” thus nullifying the catch. Once again, I could be wrong, but this is what I remember. It seems to follow the rules as quoted, as well, unless you see a different interpretation to that section. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/34 "2005-09-19T02:50:11Z")
But if the other fielder takes the ball out of the glove and doesn’t drop it, how can it not be considered a catch? Unless the other fielder takes it out and drops it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/35 "2005-09-19T02:55:51Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > But if the other fielder takes the ball out of the glove and doesn’t drop it, how can it not be considered a catch? Unless the other fielder takes it out and drops it. I seem to remember the umps at the game taking a very strict reading of the rule. The spirit of the rule seems to warrant a more liberal interpretation, but I recall the umpires conferring about this “voluntary and intentional” part. Let me see if I can dig this game up from newspapers at the library. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 4:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/36 "2005-09-19T04:07:48Z")
I looked through Retrosheet’s logs of Bob Dernier’s games against the Cubs in 1988 and 1989 and there doesn’t seem to be a play that matches up. Nor does there seem to be anything that comes up on ProQuest’s Historic Newspapers. But good luck. It might end up being much different from the way you remember it. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/37 "2005-09-19T04:44:30Z")
> [@BobT](#): > > I looked through Retrosheet’s logs of Bob Dernier’s games against the Cubs in 1988 and 1989 and there doesn’t seem to be a play that matches up. Nor does there seem to be anything that comes up on ProQuest’s Historic Newspapers. > > But good luck. It might end up being much different from the way you remember it. Great. This is going to drive me crazy now. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/38 "2005-09-19T05:22:22Z")
OK. I am misremembering one point. Granted, a crucial point, but the play is still interesting from a rules standpoint. The ex-Cub outfielder I was thinking of was not Bob Dernier, but rather Dave Martinez of the Expos. And Dave Martinez caught the ball, held on to it for five seconds (thereby securing control), but the ball rolled out of his glove eventually, and Tim Raines picked it up and threw it into the field. > [@](#): > > In the top of the seventh inning, Andre Dawson of the Cubs hit a fly ball to left center that appeared to be caught by Dave Martinez. > > The Expos’ flychaser fell to the ground after making the catch and despite having the ball in his possession for up to five seconds, Martinez let it roll away and umpire Paul Runge ruled “no catch.” Montreal outfielder Tim Raines picked up the ball and retrieved it while Dawson was circling the bases en route to an inside-the-park home run. > > There is no doubt that Martinez satisfied the secure possession part of the rule, but since he fell down and dropped the ball despite holding on to it for five seconds, it was not ruled a legal catch because he was unable to voluntarily release the ball. > > Oddly enough if Raines was able to take the ball out of Martinez’s glove before it rolled away, that would have satisfied the voluntary release aspect of the rule. [From here.](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_4_62/ai_98249712) I do seem to recall Raines getting to Martinez before the ball rolled away from him, and I suppose the announcers must have discussed that Raines should have taken the ball out of Martinez’s mitt. Hence my misremembering. However, it still is contrary to **OldMan’s** assertion that “If the feilder clearly is controlling the ball it’s a catch and an out regardless if he drops it later” which was the point I was originally rebutting. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/39 "2005-09-19T06:27:11Z")
Anyone old enough to remember newspaper box scores that listed each plyer’s putouts would probably understand this better. In a game pitched by Sandy Koufax in 1959, in which he got 18 strikeouts, the box score didn’t give Koufax 18 putouts–those went to his catcher, Johnny Roseboro. And I saw the Knickerbockers’ rule about a dropped third strike in Turkin and Thompson’s _Official Encyclopedia of Baseball._ In Willard Mullin’s \*So You Think You Know Baseball! \* (1963), he presents a hypothetical situation. There is one out in the last of the ninth with the home team one run behind; the catcher drops a third strike and the batter goes to first. The next batter up hits a home run and the home team wins. According to Mullin, “The umpires working the game are fined.” ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2005, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671/40 "2005-09-19T14:35:37Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > OK. I am misremembering one point. Granted, a crucial point, but the play is still interesting from a rules standpoint. > > The ex-Cub outfielder I was thinking of was not Bob Dernier, but rather Dave Martinez of the Expos. And Dave Martinez caught the ball, held on to it for five seconds (thereby securing control), but the ball rolled out of his glove eventually, and Tim Raines picked it up and threw it into the field. > > [From here.](http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_4_62/ai_98249712) > > I do seem to recall Raines getting to Martinez before the ball rolled away from him, and I suppose the announcers must have discussed that Raines should have taken the ball out of Martinez’s mitt. Hence my misremembering. > > However, it still is contrary to **OldMan’s** assertion that “If the feilder clearly is controlling the ball it’s a catch and an out regardless if he drops it later” which was the point I was originally rebutting. I think another crucial point here is that the batter is out on the catch of a fly ball when the umpire calls the batter out. So once that happens, the batter is out. The call isn’t going to change. If you watch an umpire make a call on a fly ball, they don’t make them in a hurry. They wait a little bit and then call “out”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catcher-drops-third-strike-batter-starts-running-why/321671.md?page=3)