# Caterpillar Sex **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [December 14, 2000, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632 "2000-12-14T22:45:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2000, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/61 "2000-12-26T22:52:37Z")
Well, the pix enlarged just fine for me [_shudder_]–I’ve got Win95 and IE5. What, Jam, you don’t WANT to kiss the bimbette? Sheesh, you’re hard to please. Okay, then, we’ll have to get Jeff Goldblum for the role instead, I guess. (It’s my understanding, from the Forum Descriptions, that this thread shouldn’t be in any danger of being moved to MPSIMS unless we start hugging. That’s with the {{{{ }}}} brackets. If everyone in the thread keeps his hands to himself, we ought to be okay.) ---
**Author:** ![Jamoross](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jamoross/32/3241_2.png) [@Jamoross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamoross)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/62 "2000-12-27T04:08:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > **It’d be a lot easier on the download if you created smaller versions in your image editing software (there should be a “resize” option somewhere), and used those for the thumbnails, instead.** Next time I’m at the local market, I’ll try to remember to pick up a can of “Image Editing Software”. I may actually have some here somewhere. I do most of my “work” in a text editor on a Unix system or Win2k Command Window. (I wasn’t kidding about my “festering curmudgeonliness”.) > [@](#): > > **It’s awfully good, though, for a first attempt at HTML.** First _successful_ attempt anyway. But thanks! > [@](#): > > \*\*As to what it is, were I to identify it, I would say that it’s obviously a miniature dragon. Have you observed it engaging in any incendiary behavior? \*\* Yes, the behavior was there. When anyone approached it would arch up and swing its head from side to side in sweeping arcs. It must have depleted its flammable saliva before entering the premises or I would be writing to you now from the local burn ward. 😃 - jam ---
**Author:** ![Jamoross](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jamoross/32/3241_2.png) [@Jamoross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamoross)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/63 "2000-12-27T04:42:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by NanoByte \* > \*\*They obviously escaped from the nearest Japanese robot-toy factory. > \*\* This one didn’t escape; we caught it before it got outside. And please don’t call this a toy factory where my boss might read about it. When I say “microelectronic devices” he thinks of satellites and telecommunications. Nevermind that what makes his cell phone so small also makes for some great things that _we_ know are really toys. (Seen the [latest hard disk from IBM?](http://www.ibm.com/news/2000//11/images/uscoin.jpg) 1GB on a disk the size of a U.S. Quarter!) - jam ---
**Author:** ![Jamoross](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jamoross/32/3241_2.png) [@Jamoross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamoross)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 5:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/64 "2000-12-27T05:04:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Duck Duck Goose \* > **What, Jam, you don’t WANT to kiss the bimbette? Sheesh, you’re hard to please.** Well they always promise me up front that I will get the girl, but then the action starts and I wind up in the background wearing a long white coat while one of the _salesmen_ steps in front of the camera and steals the scene with his sparkling vacuous grin. - jam@flip.some.switches.wouldya? ---
**Author:** ![Jamoross](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jamoross/32/3241_2.png) [@Jamoross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamoross)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/65 "2000-12-27T06:25:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > **It looks to me like one of the aliens from _The Puppet Masters_ or something.** It made me think of Starship Troopers. > [@](#): > > **It definitely appears to have an adult-like front part attached to a larval-type back half.** I wondered if it was actually only midway through metamorphosis. It did **not** exhibit the languor I thought was usual for insects in a pupal phase. > [@](#): > > \*\* I’ll take your word for it that it was alive and moving about.\*\* Yes, it is unfortunate that the pictures all show it in basically the same posture and position. I hadn’t noticed until now that they all show it curving its body to the right. I don’t remember it being partial to that side. I think the technician wielding the camera (Kenji Sugita) rotated the sheet of paper it was on to get the views I suggested in the same direction between each shot. The subject was aware of humans and would try to keep a head-on presentation. If undisturbed for several seconds it would lower its head and hind end then cast about “aimlessly”. > [@](#): > > \*\*The long front legs definitely seem to be adult-type. I can’t be sure whether it has large adult-type compound eyes or not. \*\* Definitely has large compound eyes. The top view shows them best as they are facing right at the camera. In all the views it has its head reared up. Even while flailing on its back for the bottom view shot. > [@](#): > > But those other things along the abdomen seem to be “prolegs,” or larval-type leglike organs found only in caterpillars.\*\* Very tenacious prolegs. And on the segment just posterior to the last pair of prolegs you can see a pair of spikes. (Cleary visible in the front view.) I did not see it extrude silk but we placed it in a plastic box and the next morning there were dozens of random strands in with it. > [@](#): > > \*\* > What it looks like to me is a dragonfly-type nymph front half stuck onto a caterpillar’s abdomen. I wish I could see the mouthparts more clearly.\*\* In the front view, the mouth is just above and between the two white dots (reflections) that many people who see these photos think are the eyes. What **I** think are the eyes are the two globular structures with dark smudges above that. > [@](#): > > **The ID may have to wait until next week when I can consult with my Smithsonian colleagues, unless of course Doug Yanega happens to wander in here. We do have a Japanese entomologist hanging about the shop, and she may know.** The desiccated remains of this specimen were last seen (by me anyway) about two weeks ago. We had a general cleanup since then and the container it was in _may_ have been discarded. Either that or it got stashed in one of the storage cabinets. I looked around for a few minutes this morning but didn’t find it. Is it worth a thorough search? As more knowledgeable people fail to identify this wee beast, the more I kick myself for not paying better attention to its care and keeping when it crossed my path. - jam ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2000, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/66 "2000-12-27T14:39:05Z")
Duh! [DDG smacks self upside the head] My subconscious mind woke me up in the middle of the night to tell me, “Hey, the giant bug movies professor at the U of I! Send her an e-mail!” Translated, this means, “You live in the same neck of the woods where they hold the annual Insect Fear Film Festival–see if what’s-er-name is still around, and have Jam e-mail her with his ugly bug pix.” [http://www.life.uiuc.edu/entomology/ifff.html](http://www.life.uiuc.edu/entomology/ifff.html) > [@](#): > > The Insect Fear Film Festival at the University of Illinois was initiated by our Department Head Prof. May Berenbaum in 1984, and has grown into a nationally recognized event. Evidently she’s still there. It’s worth a try, eh? [http://www.life.uiuc.edu/entomology/deptindex.html](http://www.life.uiuc.edu/entomology/deptindex.html) (I can’t get her page to come up by itself. Scroll down to “Faculty Staff & Affiliates” and then click on her name) ---
**Author:** ![Jamoross](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jamoross/32/3241_2.png) [@Jamoross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamoross)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2000, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/67 "2000-12-28T01:25:18Z")
Generally, I don’t go mailing pictures of repulsive insects (we have all agreed on that taxon, no?) to people with whom I’ve had no previous contact. Do you know this particular entomologist, **Duck Duck Goose**? Or have reason to think she might welcome such a random inquiry? I don’t want to bother a total stranger. - jam ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2000, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/68 "2000-12-28T16:26:08Z")
Her reputation is that of a genial, fun-loving, bug-loving soul. Anybody who starts an Insect Fear Film Festival can’t be all bad. I’d send her an e-mail myself, except that (a) you’re the one with the pictures, and (b) you’re an actual scientist-type person, and you might have more credibility. I am just a housewife with too much time on her hands. I’m sure she gets lots of “what is this bug?” calls; she might pay more attention to you. Send her a “query” e-mail–say, “I’ve got these pix of a weird bug, possibly Japanese, possibly Canadian, and wouldn’t it be exciting for the Japanese Food and Drug Administration, whoever they are, if it DID turn out to be an illegal alien bug from British Columbia that came in on one of our crates, can you tell me what this bug is, please?” She’s got about 25 people under her in the Entomology Department–surely there’s some hungry intern who would jump at the chance to suck up a little and run the thing through the database. I’m serious. I’m not joking. [insert dead-serious emoticon] This is how we do things in America. I mean, what’s she gonna do, send legbreakers over to your house 'cause you bothered her at work? At the very worst, your e-mail will disappear into the electronic void, never to be heard from again. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2000, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/69 "2000-12-28T16:29:55Z")
Ah, fooey. It’s the Japanese Department of Agriculture, of course, not the Food and Drug Administration. I keep getting all these Feds mixed up. The FDA is the one in the pinstripes, the USDA are in brown suits, and the FBI is in gray. ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2000, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/70 "2000-12-28T18:24:04Z")
I just wanna say, **NanoByte** , don’t be such a stranger. This board could definitely use your wit a little more often than you’re able to impart. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2000, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/71 "2000-12-28T19:27:33Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Jamoross \* > \*\* > I wondered if it was actually only midway through > metamorphosis. It did **not** exhibit the languor I thought > was usual for insects in a pupal phase._\* No, I don’t think it was part-way through a normal metamorphosis. However, I wonder whether some developmental screw-up; perhaps, excessive secretion of “juvenile hormone,” or dosage with an insecticide containing this hormone, could have caused some kind of partial metamorphosis. But the characteristics that are present don’t make sense for any single insect order I can recall. The apparent absence of antennae on the “adult-type” head doesn’t make sense for a lepidopteran (butterfly/moth); yet I think only lepidopterans (and maybe some relatives) have those kind of abdominal legs we see on the caterpillar half. I will definitely try to get it ID’d when I get back to work, but that won’t be until Jan 3. ---
**Author:** ![Jamoross](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jamoross/32/3241_2.png) [@Jamoross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamoross)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/72 "2000-12-29T05:01:34Z")
After reading about the Insect Fear Film Festival and its creator, I have decided that Prof. Berenbaum is probably not the best expert to bother. Feel free to e-mail her yourself and provide the link to the pictures if you like, **Duck Duck Goose**. I’ll keep that page available for several more weeks. For your convenience, here’s the link: [http://twics.co.jp/~jamoross/larva/sdmbref.html](http://twics.co.jp/~jamoross/larva/sdmbref.html) I finally figured out my provider’s counter thingy and added one Wednesday evening. Since then it’s had 352 hits from _unique_ IP addresses! Wow! Who would have thought so many people would want to see such an ugly bug? I’m glad it wasn’t found near my house… Anyway, I did a web search and found plenty of pages from university entomology departments that have faculty whose specialities indicate they might be interested in this. So I’ve decided to wait until **Colobri** can ask his colleagues. And if that fails, then I’ll pick a victim or two and hit them with a cold-call via e-mail. Part of the reason scientist types pay more attention to correspondence from others of their own ilk is that they can assume such queries have been pre-screened for relevance to their specialty or interests. And that certain forms will be observed, like having checked with personal associates first. Housewives, on the other hand, are free from expectations of knowing such arcana and need only be polite. So fire away if you think you can get her attention during the holidays. - jam ---
**Author:** ![NanoByte](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecc23a/32.png) [@NanoByte](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NanoByte)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/73 "2000-12-29T06:18:34Z")
Well, given Mjollnir’s sanction. . .not being _ **either** _ an arcana-free housewife or a scientist, apparently I don’t have to be either informed or polite. . .so I’ll just say that the whole subject is very boring. 😛 (But if it lacks antennae, it’s probably just because someone stole its cell phone.) Ray (ex-EE) ---
**Author:** ![Jamoross](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jamoross/32/3241_2.png) [@Jamoross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamoross)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2000, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/74 "2000-12-29T06:20:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > \*\*I wonder whether some developmental screw-up; perhaps, excessive secretion of “juvenile hormone,” or dosage with an insecticide containing this hormone, could have caused some kind of partial metamorphosis. \*\* I think it unlikely that it was dosed with a hormonal insecticide. This is Japan; we use poisons. Copiously. An odd point that seems to contradict both our ideas of some kind of developmental defect was the specimen’s behavior. The posturing and mock-threat displays suggest that a formidable outward appearance has been an asset for many generations. It’s a common technique here though, so assuming it is defective, it could still have an intimdation response even in its normal configuration. > [@](#): > > **But the characteristics that are present don’t make sense for any single insect order I can recall. The apparent absence of antennae on the “adult-type” head doesn’t make sense for a lepidopteran (butterfly/moth); yet I think only lepidopterans (and maybe some relatives) have those kind of abdominal legs we see on the caterpillar half.** The anterior features most closely resemble some local odonates, especially the legs because of their relative lengths. The lepidopteran posterior portion, although distinctive, is completely unfamiliar to me. (Unsurprising since I only know the bugs that frequent my garden. My youngest son however, was a mildly avid entomological hobbyist before he decided to major in chemistry, and he said it’s nothing like anything he ever studied.) > [@](#): > > \*\*I will definitely try to get it ID’d when I get back to work, but that won’t be until Jan 3. \*\* I’ll be off until January 5, but may check in here anyway before then. Thanks for asking around. - jam ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 3, 2001, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/75 "2001-01-03T22:49:06Z")
Ok, here’s the deal on **Jamoross’s** mini-monster. I ran it by some colleagues here at the Smithsonian Tropical Research Institute, and this is the reply I got from Dr. Annette Aiello, who is our caterpillar expert: > [@](#): > > Hi George, > > A humbug if ever I saw one. Actually, it is the larva of a moth belonging to the family Notodontidae. It is _Stauropus_, probabaly _S. fagi_, a widespread species found in most of Europe, and occurring as far south as southern Scandinavia, and eastwards across warmer parts of Asia to Japan. I don’t know how large the genus is, but it does include quite a few species. Because of the form of the larva, with its long thoracic legs, it is commonly called the lobster moth. The 2 long cerci-like structures at the tip of the raised abdomen (actually abdominal segments 7-10 only) are the 10th segment prolegs, no longer usable for walking. Lots of notodontid larvae raise the 2 ends of the body like that, but few are a bizarre as _Saturopus_. The adult is a disappointing brownish thing. > > Annette Additional info I extracted from _The Dictionary of Butterflies and Moths_ (Laithwaite et al., 1975): > [@](#): > > _Stauropus fagi_ **Lobster Moth** > The moth of this species is a sombre grayish brown. The caterpillar, in contrast, is an extraordinary scorpion- or lobster-like creature. When disturbed it raises the swollen rear end of the abdomen over its back and vibrates one of the abnormally long, spider-like second and third pairs of thoracic legs. Further provocation may produce an ejection of a formic acid secretion from the thoracic glands of the caterpillar. Apparently they feed mainly on beech and oak trees, rarely if ever on radioactive waste. Sigh. I _was_ hoping it would turn out to be a juvenile Mothra. Still, something called a “lobster moth” isn’t too shabby. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/76 "2001-01-04T14:14:04Z")
_Invasion of the Lobster Moths._ Hmmm–I like it. [Say, Mack, get me Jeff Goldblum’s agent, willya?] ---
**Author:** ![Jamoross](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jamoross/32/3241_2.png) [@Jamoross](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jamoross)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/77 "2001-01-04T19:17:02Z")
Many thanks, George. Starting from the information you provided, I have had some success with search engines. I’m going to call it _Stauropus fagi persimilis_ based on listings in some local Japanese pest surveys. I couldn’t find any specific pictures, but it looks close enough to photos of other _S. fagi_ that it is obviously closely related. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Colibri \* > \*\*Further provocation may produce an ejection of a formic acid secretion from the thoracic glands of the caterpillar. \*\* Spraying acid! “Pungent fuming vesicant acid (CH[sub]2[/sub]O[sub]2[/sub]) may induce blistering.” Surrounded by a suitable reactant, maybe this guy _could_ have done a flamethrower number! > [@](#): > > **Apparently they feed mainly on beech and oak trees, rarely if ever on radioactive waste.** I found the species listed as a pest on oaks and maples. Apparently, the larva burrow into the soil where they spin a cocoon and spend the winter as pupae. This individual must have been looking for a soft place to dig when it wandered into our lab. > [@](#): > > **Sigh. I _was_ hoping it would turn out to be a juvenile Mothra. Still, something called a “lobster moth” isn’t too shabby.** It’s a ƒVƒƒƒ`ƒzƒRƒK (shachihokoga) in Japanese which, very loosely translates as “gargoyle moth”. (Shachihoko are the large fish-like ornaments on the roofs of temples and “ga” means moth.) Also please extend my thanks to Dr. Aiello. If either of you happen to pass through Tokyo, look me up and I’ll see that you get some proper hospitality. - jam ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 4, 2001, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/78 "2001-01-04T19:56:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Jamoross \* > \*\* > > Also please extend my thanks to Dr. Aiello. If either of > you happen to pass through Tokyo, look me up and I’ll see > that you get some proper hospitality. > > - jam > \*\* Thanks for the thought, **jam** , but we ain’t likely to be dropping by until you get rid of them damn acid-spewing caterpillars. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [January 5, 2001, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/79 "2001-01-05T15:58:43Z")
Oh, and just to tidy up one other loose end: **Irishman** , the Gaelic for “namesake” is _comhainmneach_. I hope you have the opportunity to use this information in some other thread. ---
**Author:** ![JillGat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9fc29f/32.png) [@JillGat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JillGat)\ **Post date:** [January 6, 2001, 2:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632/80 "2001-01-06T02:31:35Z")
Okay, okay, Colibri, so go write some more Staff Reports. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/caterpillar-sex/45632.md?page=5)