# Catholic Church being scum (again) **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 26, 2012, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998 "2012-04-26T09:27:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/21 "2012-04-27T01:25:44Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > That’s .. eh… insane, all right. > > But no, I was more trying to focus on the difference between private actors (free to be insane) and government actors (not free to be insane). A private school can ask their students to pray to Bush, Obama, or Cthulu without running afoul of law. A public school can’t. From the OP: > [@](#): > > The Roman Catholic church has written to every **state-funded** Catholic secondary school Bolding mine. These are not privately funded schools. They are state funded schools. That’s what the fuss is about. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/22 "2012-04-27T01:32:50Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Maybe. But what lies with a political agenda are you picturing? A concrete example or two would help. Well, the specific example that came to mind was the thing from a couple years ago in which Virginia textbooks [contained lies about the Confederate army’s makeup](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/10/19/AR2010101907974.html), because for some reason I stumbled across an old article about that today. Apparently, in that case, it was the result of the textbook being written by someone completely unqualified who may well not have realized that the website of the Sons of Confederate Veterans’ website that she was reading was telling a politically-motivated lie. But the most relevant current example would be the pervasive attempts to introduce biology textbooks that “teach the controversy” and tell politically-motivated lies about evolution, and the “disclaimers” some school systems have inserted into textbooks to fallaciously cast doubt on the theory of evolution. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/23 "2012-04-27T01:35:34Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > These are not privately funded schools. They are state funded schools. That’s what the fuss is about. But the UK doesn’t have the same sort of separation of church and state that the US does. AFAICT from the OP’s linked article, the problem is not that a religious organization is pushing a religious issue in state-funded schools that are, after all, officially affiliated with that religious organization: rather, it’s that the issue runs afoul of restrictions on political indoctrination. > [@](#): > > The British Humanist Association said the CES’s actions were likely to be in breach of sections 406 and 407 of the 1996 Education Act, which ban the political indoctrination of schoolchildren and require political views to be presented in a balanced way. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 8:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/24 "2012-04-27T08:31:51Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > If you’re saying that the “shrieking an wailing” would be a bad thing, why is your shrieking and railing any better? Sure, I agree with you on the politics, but I’m not keen on either side getting minor children involved. If it were a secular, government run school, I would be livid. for a self-claimed lawyer you really are not all that great at this whole ‘reading’ thing are you? I am of course coloured a bright shade of unsurprised that you are fine with privatised indoctrination of impressionable young minds in bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/25 "2012-04-27T08:37:23Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But the UK doesn’t have the same sort of separation of church and state that the US does. That would be pretty hard to achieve, short of sawing the Queen in half. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/26 "2012-04-27T08:40:11Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > But the UK doesn’t have the same sort of separation of church and state that the US does. > > AFAICT from the OP’s linked article, the problem is not that a religious organization is pushing a religious issue in state-funded schools that are, after all, officially affiliated with that religious organization: rather, it’s that the issue runs afoul of restrictions on political indoctrination. Unfortunately in the UK we still fund faith-based schools from the public purse. The curriculum they teach and the activities they engage in are heavily circumscribed by the National Curriculum (but which mandates a basic, Christian religious education). They are most certainly not allowed to incite hatred and bigotry under the cloak of religion. There has been an ongoing concerted attempt, funded by unknown sources, but generally accepted to be evangenlical american churches, to get creationist bullshit taught in schools. But score one for Sane People here. [Richard Dawkins celebrates a victory over creationists](http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/2012/jan/15/free-schools-creationism-intelligent-design) > [@](#): > > Leading scientists and naturalists, including Professor Richard Dawkins and Sir David Attenborough, are claiming a victory over the creationist movement after the government ratified measures that will bar anti-evolution groups from teaching creationism in science classes. > > The Department for Education has revised its model funding agreement, allowing the education secretary to withdraw cash from schools that fail to meet strict criteria relating to what they teach. Under the new agreement, funding will be withdrawn for any free school that teaches what it claims are “evidence-based views or theories” that run “contrary to established scientific and/or historical evidence and explanations”. [The Welsh Regional Assembly is already on the case.](http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-17861000) > [@](#): > > A Welsh government spokesperson told BBC Wales’ Dragon’s Eye programme: "The education minister has seen the press stories and has asked officials to investigate. > > “All schools must ensure issues are taught in a way that does not subject pupils to discrimination.” > > The CES intends to issue new guidelines to its schools to remind them that children under the age of 16 cannot sign the online petition. > > The executive director of the National Secular Society (NSS), Keith Porteous Wood, said he was “sickened” by the CES’s letter. > > “I think the church is seeking to promote its overtly political stance where it doesn’t even seem to accept the supremacy of parliament by using its schools, which are taxpayer funded,” he added. > > “It is no right of the church to use the school as a political lobbying tool and we are certain this is against the Education Act and it may be in breach of the Equalities Act.” ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/27 "2012-04-27T13:30:53Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Gee I don’t know kids, what if we call a conservative, Republican, Mormon Scientist (!) to tell us about this “hysteria”? > > [Response to Wall Street Journal 16 | Climate Asylum](http://bbickmore.wordpress.com/2012/02/22/response-to-wall-street-journal-16/) > Remember kids, just because the right wing media says so, science in reality has no sides to take. And every person from the right that does appreciate science should tell their sources to do better regarding this issue. I was reminded of efforts to force \*An Incovenient Truth \*down the throats of every student in the country. From wikipedia… “On the other hand, several reviews criticized the film on scientific and political grounds. Journalist Ronald Bailey argued in the libertarian magazine Reason that although “Gore gets [the science] more right than wrong,” he exaggerates the risks.[58] Global warming skeptics were vocally critical of the film, such as MIT physicist Richard S. Lindzen, who wrote in a June 26, 2006 op-ed in the Wall Street Journal that Gore was using a biased presentation to exploit the fears of the public for his own political gain.[59] Some reviewers were also skeptical of Gore’s intent, wondering whether he was setting himself for another Presidential run. Boston Globe writer Peter Canello criticized the “gauzy biographical material that seems to have been culled from old Gore campaign commercials.”[60] Phil Hall of Film Threat gave the film a negative review, saying “An Inconvenient Truth is something you rarely see in movies today: a blatant intellectual fraud.”[61]” ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/28 "2012-04-27T13:47:37Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > for a self-claimed lawyer you really are not all that great at this whole ‘reading’ thing are you? > > I am of course coloured a bright shade of unsurprised that you are fine with privatised indoctrination of impressionable young minds in bigotry. What a fucking tool you are! First, I’m not a lawyer and have never claimed to be one. Second, you claim I’m OK with something I explicitly said I was not OK with… in the very post you quoted! Third, you accuse me of not being able to read? ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/29 "2012-04-27T14:01:02Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > I was reminded of efforts to force \*An Incovenient Truth \*down the throats of every student in the country. And you are still wrong, what do the already mentioned professor at BYU says about it? > **[“Why Don’t You Bash Al Gore?”](https://bbickmore.wordpress.com/2010/10/03/why-dont-you-bash-al-gore/)** > > Since I took the plunge and started publicly criticizing certain climate change contrarians, notably certain Utah politicians and Christopher Monckton, people on the other side of the fence have of… > [@](#): > > 1. Gore’s documentary, “An Inconvenient Truth”, is not that bad, frankly. > > Yes, there are a couple errors. Yes, in a few cases he focuses on “worst-case scenarios,” rather than communicating the full range of risk. But the fact is that he got the most important points right, and the problems aren’t that serious from the perspective of most scientists who have examined the movie. Tim Lambert collected reactions from a number of scientists about a list of nine alleged errors in the movie, for example. While they didn’t always agree about the status of individual “errors,” there was general agreement that the list was too long. In most cases, it was questionable whether they were really errors at all. > > In the cases where Gore presented “worst-case scenarios” instead of depicting the full range of risk, try to look at it from the perspective of the scientists involved. The vast majority of scientists are saying, “Human-induced climate change is very likely to be a very big problem, and somewhat likely to be a very, very big problem.” Are they supposed to get all worked up when a popularizer like Gore goes around saying it will be a very, very big problem? The reaction of most scientists has been exactly what it should be. ”Well, maybe he overstated his case somewhat, but he got the gist right.” > > Now, contrast this with someone like Christopher Monckton, who goes about proclaiming that climate change is a “non-problem,” and to support his case he completely misrepresents the scientific literature he cites. Whom do you think scientists are going to want to spend their time criticizing? > > And no, I didn’t vote for Gore. Incidentally, if you had paid attention, Richard Lindzen is one of the scientists that has lost respect for failing so often and using ideology to guide his pronouncements, he was also one of the very few scientists that did sign the WSJ sorry denier note full of demonstrated lies. Also, the opinion of a film critic is truly worthless here and finally bashing Gore does demonstrate who is using politics to deny the science. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/30 "2012-04-27T14:06:50Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What a fucking tool you are! > > First, I’m not a lawyer and have never claimed to be one. > > Second, you claim I’m OK with something I explicitly said I was not OK with… in the very post you quoted! > > Third, you accuse me of not being able to read? Well, you have to admit that “I would be livid” is an anagram for “Bi dude I ill vow.” Clearly you’re okay with indoctrinating young minds with bigotry–you’re even subliminally pushing for people to take vows of ill-will towards them! Oh, wait, for a minute there I was infected with the same bizzaro reasoning that seems to have afflicted **What the … !!!**. Sorry, I think I’m better now. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/31 "2012-04-27T14:18:05Z")
> [@tagos](#): > > for a self-claimed lawyer you really are not all that great at this whole ‘reading’ thing are you? > > I am of course coloured a bright shade of unsurprised that you are fine with privatised indoctrination of impressionable young minds in bigotry. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > What a fucking tool you are! > > First, I’m not a lawyer and have never claimed to be one. > > Second, you claim I’m OK with something I explicitly said I was not OK with… in the very post you quoted! > > Third, you accuse me of not being able to read? Fourth… Your post is so absurdly wrong that I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you thought you were responding to someone else. Read the post you quoted, check your database of usernames and self proclaimed lawyers and get back to me. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/32 "2012-04-27T14:21:26Z")
As for the OP, this is yet another reason why I’m a lapsed Catholic. I’m seriously considering joining the Unitarians. And yeah, \*\*Rhythmdvl \*\*the reasoning **What the … !!!** shows speaks volumes to me, it is like encountering a [brown M&M in the bowl](http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/143/made-to-stick-the-telltale-brown-mampm.html), the silliness how he approaches a subject is a huge clue that other subjects he mentions have also the same superficial and silly approach applied to them by him. ---
**Author:** ![Rhythmdvl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/85f322/32.png) [@Rhythmdvl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhythmdvl)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/33 "2012-04-27T14:42:10Z")
I heartily concur. His “reasoning” is very much like a brown thing floating in a bowl, though not necessarily what you had in mind. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/34 "2012-04-27T20:13:47Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Can’t they risk losing their tax exempt status though? Good idea, but I don’t see it happening. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 27, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/35 "2012-04-27T20:15:38Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > I was reminded of efforts to force \*An Incovenient Truth \*down the throats of every student in the country. What planet did that happen on? ---
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/36 "2012-04-30T14:15:06Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > What planet did that happen on? You’re right… it would be impossible to fit a movie down anybody’s throat. Don’t I recall that there was a major effort to show it to school kids and that parents had to take measures to opt out? I was talking about things “like that” and admitting that the right pisses and moans too. Hey…did you see the story about the Chicago teacher who told the kids that the right wants to kill all the “porch monkeys”? I know it’s just an isolated incident but I wanted to expose some more silliness to the ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/37 "2012-04-30T14:23:39Z")
Honestly, the pedophilia shit has made me jaded. I can’t get outraged over this. They’re just doing their last hurrah before they’ll have to start accepting it, or at least tolerating it (like they do sex outside of wedlock). ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/38 "2012-04-30T14:28:54Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Mahata-mada-nata-hidi-manata. Ok, tongues it is! That means “no worries”. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/39 "2012-04-30T14:29:32Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > Hey…did you see the story about the Chicago teacher who told the kids that the right wants to kill all the “porch monkeys”? I know it’s just an isolated incident but I wanted to expose some more silliness to the ignorant. _“The Roman Catholic church has written to every state-funded Catholic secondary school in England and Wales asking them to encourage pupils to sign a petition against gay marriage”_ is not an “isolated incident” due to a single teacher somewhere. Your analogy fails miserably. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [April 30, 2012, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-being-scum-again/619998/40 "2012-04-30T14:46:40Z")
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