# Catholic Church excommunicates raped 9 year old girl who had abortion ... but not her rapist **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 12, 2015, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838 "2015-03-12T16:35:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/201 "2015-03-20T17:50:54Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > It’s not just useless, it actually completely contradicts the “God works in mysterious ways” argument. > > Because it’s saying that God does not _have to_ move in mysterious ways, but chooses to. Because we _can_ understand. The previous argument was that we just _can’t_ understand because it’s too far beyond us. No contradiction. We cannot possibly understand. We can’t. The sort of being we will be in Heaven, in contrast, will be able to understand. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/202 "2015-03-20T17:53:48Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Such a fundamental change to not just my being but my \*self \*would be, effectively, the death of me and the birth of something with the memories of some human that existed until just recently. > > Beyond that, though, the kind of fundamental understanding changes you’re talking about seem very much like they would be deep and powerful enough that they would result in the transformation of one person into another, rather than growth. On those grounds I can’t see why _I_ am necessary to the process of the creation of this other person. Yes, in Heaven you would be a glorified version of yourself. But the unique you that was created is still you and everything about you led to that. I used to be disturbed by the idea that body and soul are inextricably combined from conception, since I hate my body, but what has happened to me body and soul throughout my existence leads to where I will be in the afterlife. For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/203 "2015-03-20T17:56:40Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > And here you are, giving God human limits, despite claiming he doesn’t have them. Of course he could do that, he could create it and lift it, No. I’m explaining my model of God to you. You cannot reject my model, tell me that this other model of God is the correct one, and then show how flawed that second model is. > [@](#): > > Then you have a God who isn’t omnipotent, not even close. No, I disagree. “Omnipotent,” in this context, does not describe a being that can flout the paradox created by the definition you propose. I’m not arguing that it does. If your argument is with someone who simplistically says that “Omnipotent,” literally means that the answer to every single “Can he do \_\_\_\_\_?” is “Yes,” then find that person and continue the discussion with him. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/204 "2015-03-20T17:58:02Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m sure you recognize how useless this sort of statement is to non-believers… Yes, I do. As I have conceded above, this is a matter that cannot be reasoned into --although it contains internally consistent beliefs, it’s not testable. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/205 "2015-03-20T18:01:09Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Yes, in Heaven you would be a glorified version of yourself. But the unique you that was created is still you and everything about you led to that. I used to be disturbed by the idea that body and soul are inextricably combined from conception, since I hate my body, but what has happened to me body and soul throughout my existence leads to where I will be in the afterlife. > > For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known. But it isn’t still me. It’s a me that can comprehend some of that which only God can comprehend. A me that understands at least some of the secrets of the universe - a me that’s been transformed so as to be mentally (not that I will have a mind in the same way) transfigured into something very different. It’s not a glorified version of me. It’s someone completely different that has my memories. Which, I would imagine, would be examined and led to very different conclusions by the being that now has them, due to their supernaturally different viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/206 "2015-03-20T18:03:38Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Yes, in Heaven you would be a glorified version of yourself. But the unique you that was created is still you and everything about you led to that. I used to be disturbed by the idea that body and soul are inextricably combined from conception, since I hate my body, but what has happened to me body and soul throughout my existence leads to where I will be in the afterlife. > > For now we see through a glass, darkly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then shall I know even as also I am known. Yep, **gigi** ’s way ahead of me. 1 Cor 9: > [@](#): > > For we know in part and we prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away. When I was a child, I used to speak like a child, think like a child, reason like a child; when I became a man, I did away with childish things. For now we see in a mirror darkly, but then face to face; now I know in part, but then I will know fully just as I also have been fully known. The analogy is similar to the one I was offering above. Right now, as physical bodies, we are analogous to the child, who lacks the capacity to understand as opposed to simply lacking the information. When we enter the kingdom of Heaven, we will be the man in the analogy, possessing a form that can understand. > [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Whoa, hold on a moment. I am the product of my understanding of the world, the product of my thinking. If you’re saying that at some point I will be given the capacity to understand, that I will have my mind opened up to possibilities that I am incapable of even comprehending on any level beyond the most basic, then the end product there might very well be a person who understands why people can’t go to Heaven right away - but it won’t be _me_. Was the month-old infant **Revenant Threshold** not you? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/207 "2015-03-20T18:04:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Yes, I do. As I have conceded above, this is a matter that cannot be reasoned into --although it contains internally consistent beliefs, it’s not testable. Do you think God frowns upon anyone who tries to only believe things that are testable (and have been tested)? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/208 "2015-03-20T18:06:21Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > Was the month-old infant **Revenant Threshold** not you? I guessed this might be a response and covered it in advance in that post. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/209 "2015-03-20T19:17:38Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you think God frowns upon anyone who tries to only believe things that are testable (and have been tested)? In some sense. We are meant to have faith in Him and trust in Him when we don’t know. Is that what you mean? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/210 "2015-03-20T20:27:45Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > In some sense. We are meant to have faith in Him and trust in Him when we don’t know. Is that what you mean? How am I supposed to know that “we are meant to have faith in Him and trust in Him”? You could be wrong, after all. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/211 "2015-03-20T20:40:23Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I guessed this might be a response and covered it in advance in that post. You didn’t. More specifically, you conceded that it was common usage to call the child and the man the same person, and then pointed out that you, personally, don’t see it that way. But all I’m doing is using that same model to describe what happens in the change of the self that exist in Heaven. If your worldview resists that, I have no heartburn at all if you were to say that a new person, a new self, is created by the transition, but only after you also explained that this was analogous to the adult being a new person, a new self, that transitioned from the infant. In conversation, we certainly don’t have any heartburn in pointing to a picture of baby Rev and saying, “That was you when you were eight months old,” and not hearing in response, “Well, no, because although spread and smudging is an issue, it’s pretty clear that as a result of fundamental changes, I am not the person that was in that picture.” Right? ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/212 "2015-03-20T20:42:20Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > How am I supposed to know that “we are meant to have faith in Him and trust in Him”? You could be wrong, after all. Because He came and told us. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/213 "2015-03-20T20:51:03Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Do you think God frowns upon anyone who tries to only believe things that are testable (and have been tested)? No. I think that God recognizes that this method of sorting out fact from fiction is immensely valuable. At the same time, I think He can, and has, chosen to create moments that fill people with conviction: moments of grace that aren’t testable for anyone else but fill the individual with certainty. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/214 "2015-03-20T20:52:05Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Because He came and told us. This is both absolutely true, and absolutely unpersuasive. If you believe then it requires no evidence; if you don’t, then your mere assertion of its truth is no more compelling than your original claim. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/215 "2015-03-20T21:09:14Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is both absolutely true, and absolutely unpersuasive. If you believe then it requires no evidence; if you don’t, then your mere assertion of its truth is no more compelling than your original claim. I know! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/216 "2015-03-20T21:10:34Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > No. > > I’m explaining my model of God to you. You cannot reject my model, tell me that this other model of God is the correct one, and then show how flawed that second model is. > > No, I disagree. “Omnipotent,” in this context, does not describe a being that can flout the paradox created by the definition you propose. I’m not arguing that it does. If your argument is with someone who simplistically says that “Omnipotent,” literally means that the answer to every single “Can he do \_\_\_\_\_?” is “Yes,” then find that person and continue the discussion with him. All this means is that you’re worshipping a god who claims to have that power, but doesn’t. We know from the bible (assuming it’s true) that god could - indeed did - originally create the earth as a paradise, but then chose to destroy that paradise, because of the way humans acted in ignorance. The argument that god is incapable of recreating that paradise, and yet is worthy of worship, is wholly unpersuasive. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/217 "2015-03-20T22:46:52Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > You didn’t. > > More specifically, you conceded that it was common usage to call the child and the man the same person, and then pointed out that you, personally, don’t see it that way. > > But all I’m doing is using that same model to describe what happens in the change of the self that exist in Heaven. If your worldview resists that, I have no heartburn at all if you were to say that a new person, a new self, is created by the transition, but only after you also explained that this was analogous to the adult being a new person, a new self, that transitioned from the infant. It’s analogous, for sure, but I only use it because it is the closest I can think of of looking at that kind of situation without getting into science fiction-style ideas. I would say (as I understand the theology) the new person created after death by this knowledge is reasonably analogous to the adult created via life experiences - but not similar enough that my comfort with one would indicate my comfort with the other. I bring up the adult/child change because that’s, in effect, already a situation in which I wouldn’t say those were the same person - even more so than that would be, to borrow a term, the result of my glorification. > [@](#): > > In conversation, we certainly don’t have any heartburn in pointing to a picture of baby Rev and saying, “That was you when you were eight months old,” and not hearing in response, “Well, no, because although spread and smudging is an issue, it’s pretty clear that as a result of fundamental changes, I am not the person that was in that picture.” > > Right? Sure - but what we use in conversation and what we would use to accurately describe something are not always quite in sync. You would not get that answer in casual conversation; in a debate, yes, despite those things I’m not the person in that picture. And if someone were to say to me, “I intend to manipulate your mind such that you become that person.”, I would consider that to be murder (and the birth of a new person, though for obvious reasons I’m less concerned about that point). Even more so that that would glorified me not be me, by definition; glorified me includes differences that are impossible in everyday reality, and explicitly pervasive and all-encompassing in their nature. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/218 "2015-03-20T22:54:50Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > Because He came and told us. But what might seem evil might actually have some better, overall end goal. Something good might likewise only be there to serve that purpose, its apparent goodness merely a side-effect. If we know that God has created a world in which natural disasters, diseases, and other creation-based evils exist but do so for a greater purpose - who is to say he wouldn’t also lie to us in order to further that grand plan? If he is prepared to kill in order to fulfill the grandest of plans, I would imagine he would be capable of lying. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/219 "2015-03-20T22:55:48Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Even more so that that would glorified me not be me, by definition; glorified me includes differences that are impossible in everyday reality, and explicitly pervasive and all-encompassing in their nature. Such as either lacking free will or being without the desire to do anything wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 20, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838/220 "2015-03-20T22:59:57Z")
Plus there’s issues of consent. I think were I to drug someone so as to alter their emotional and mental state without my informed consent, I would imagine that most of us would consider that to be wrong. Do I get to go to Heaven and say “Thanks for the afterlife - but, if you don’t mind, I’d prefer not to have the changes you would like to press upon me, though I appreciate they’re kindly meant.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-church-excommunicates-raped-9-year-old-girl-who-had-abortion-but-not-her-rapist/714838.md?page=12)