# Catholic Church's child-slave labor camps **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 6, 2003, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586 "2003-07-06T16:55:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/21 "2003-07-10T04:43:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*I’ve known of animist/Buddhists who slaughtered millions, tested their bio-weapon on captives, starved their own people for a mindless goal of conquest and power, and generaly made the world a crappier place. > > So, yes. \*\* Huh? I don’t think there is such a thing as an “animist/Buddhist”. Or are you talking about separate events, some involving animists and some involving Buddhists? In any case, could you please explain what events you are talking about? When/where were the things you list done by either animists or Buddhists? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/22 "2003-07-10T05:23:08Z")
I’ve seen a lot of attempts to hijack this thread, so let me see if I can help with focus: The topic of the thread is Catholic slave labor camps. Not Protestant camps or Cuban camps. Does anyone here seriously believe that Catholic slave labor camps would be OK if other religions were running them, too? The topic here is, are other such camps extant and what can be done to prevent them from continuing or recurring. That asks for specific responses, not “people are bad.” The notion has been advanced that the problem of Catholic preist/pedophiles and slave labor camps, both of which were covered up by the Roman Catholic hierarchy for years, points to a deep-seated corruption in the Catholic leadership. Once again, the notion that corruption is endemic in human instutitions doesn’t respond to the specific idea advanced. Unless you are maintaining that we should simply accept the pedophiles and the slave labor camps and merrily go on our way. Is that what you are saying? I would add that the Catholic Church no longer has any credibility. Decades ago, people who said that Catholic preists molested children were considered whackos and mindless troublemakers and their words weren’t heeded. Now we all recognize that there is a problem. I’m sure the allegations about Catholic slave labor camps were met with disbelief at first. Now we’ve learned there’s a problem there, too. Point is, we can no longer dismiss any allegation about Catholic wrongdoing out of hand. Whether or not there’s a cultural problem with the leadership, there’s definitely SOMETHING going on. Any allegation about Catholic wrongdoing now should be taken seriously and investigated. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/23 "2003-07-10T05:35:27Z")
Thank you, Evil Captor, that post brought some much-needed clarity. So, would it be appropriate for the FBI to start investigating the American dioceses of the RCC in a hunt for more slave camps? Like I said, if you’ve found two, that’s not exactly the point to say, “Whew- we got 'em all!” For that matter, would it be appropriate for the FBI to start an across-the-board investigation into all RCC dioceses in the US for child molestation, even in ones in which no charges have been filed yet? What, exactly, are the rules for dealing with a criminal conspiracy? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 11:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/24 "2003-07-10T11:52:13Z")
Since the slave labor camps have been orphanages in each case, some quiet investigations by the authorities would probably be in order. Nothing dramatic, just some interviews with people who’ve left the orphanages recently about conditions there should be enough to discover if further, more intrusive investigation is (literally) warranted. ---
**Author:** ![bayonet1976](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/77aa72/32.png) [@bayonet1976](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bayonet1976)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/25 "2003-07-10T13:18:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*I’ve seen a lot of attempts to hijack this thread, so let me see if I can help with focus: > > The topic of the thread is Catholic slave labor camps. Not Protestant camps or Cuban camps. Does anyone here seriously believe that Catholic slave labor camps would be OK if other religions were running them, too? > > The topic here is, are other such camps extant and what can be done to prevent them from continuing or recurring. That asks for specific responses, not “people are bad.”\*\* Well, the OP may disagree, you obviously do, but when the OP talks about: > [@](#): > > To what extent is this a problem with the RCC as a whole, rather than particular dioceses? If it only happened in one place, one could blame it on the local organization, as the RCC has tried to do to some extent with the pedophilia scandal. (i.e. the Pope’s declaration that it’s an “American problem.”) But when you have this kind of thing taking place in both Ireland and Australia, with similarities in both cases (such as names being taken away,) one wonders to what extent it’s a problem with the RCC, rather than being an “Irish problem” or “Australian problem.” I felt it was relevant to point out that institutional abuse of children is not confined to the RCC, or individual dioceses in the RCC, thus the problem is not just not an “Irish problem” or “Australian problem.”, but also **not just an RCC problem.** Now, if the OP’s intent was to piss on the RCC then obviously my posts in this thread are wasted. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 1:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/26 "2003-07-10T13:45:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Dogface \* > \*\*Only St. Mark of Ephesus stood up against the tide. When the bishops, archbishops, metropolitans, and patriarchs came home, they found themselves point blank informed of their error by the faithful laity. \*\* Thereby setting back ecumenticism between the Orthodox and Catholic Churches by about 500 years. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/27 "2003-07-10T13:52:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hazel \* > \*\*In any case, could you please explain what events you are talking about? When/where were the things you list done by either animists or Buddhists? \*\* Japan. First half of 20th Century. OK, so that was mostly the actions of an officially _Shinto_ State with a large Buddhist minority, Shinto being a syncretic religion combining animism with Confucianism and other philosophies – but that really has to do with the hijack about whether these evils would happen or not in the absence of Organized Christianity, rather than with the actual points of the OP. * * * As to the actual OP, first, I had been under the impression these things were not “news” in the sense that they had been revealed in most places they had happened, and _after_ the fact. That we may not have heard of it in American media until recently may just reflect our solipsistic POV on events elsewhere. Second, yes indeedy, most of the reaction has been some embarrassed coughing and throat-clearing. I have learned to expect no more from _any_ large corporate institution. Third, and addressing specifically the question of whether or to what extent this is a RCC problem vs. an Australian or Irish problem: The orphanage-workhouse or “home for incorrigibles” where children live in indentured servitude WAS and IS a widespread phenomenon around the world and WAS the rule once in what we now call the “developed west”, regardless of religious affiliation (Surely when Dickens has Scrooge ask “Are there not prisons and workhouses?” he did not only mean Papist institutions). HOWEVER what we would have here, is a situation wherein in countries/societies that properly did away with these practices in the “civil” sphere earlier in the late-19th/early-20th centuries(\*), allowed the churches to get away with it – sometimes, like Ireland or Spain or Quebec, because of the strong influence of the Church over civil life; others like the USA/Australia out of a misguided “hands-off, don’t-ask-don’t-tell” policy where the states cared more that the church was taking the burden off their hands than about HOW it was doing so. Specially due to the hierarchical politics of the organization, the entities carrying out this _within the RCC specifically_, could in turn get away with it longer than congregation-accountable denominations. (\*But some, not so early.) (BTW let’s not forget the frequent _collaboration_ of churchES and States in running “Indian/Aboriginal Schools” where the point was to erase the kids’ native culture and assimilate them) However, **Ben** , I doubt that you’ll find many more of these still extant _in this form_ in the major Western nations. I, too have read the various reports, and over the past 30 years the preferred pattern has been of a quiet phase-out, as much because of the economics and logistics of keeping it up, as because of any moral or legal consideration. This, along with the pedopriest issue, are stains on the RCC for which atonement shall be heavy and long, and the various hierarchs trying to wave it off are just pathetic (unlike the Inquisition, they can’t claim it was the Middle Ages and we didn’t know better). However, as **Evil Captor** mentioned, at this point in time in the USA and Europe (and elsewhere through such groups as AI and HRW) we have the tools to figure out if and where there’s need for further inquiry or for action, without going into **Ben** ’s idea of an open-ended “FBI hunt” _specifically against the RCC_ – which is where he just goes over-the-top. I’m not for declaring open season on ANY group, whether justified for the sake of “the children” or of “homeland security against terror”; specially if it involves just barging in to “hunt” for anything-that-may-come-up, even if there is no complaint or probable cause. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/28 "2003-07-10T14:11:33Z")
[http://us.imdb.com/Title?0318411](http://us.imdb.com/Title?0318411) Bastards. This and many other concerns, abuse etc. has led to a huge crisis in the Church over here. My age group(early 30’s) and younger have turned away from the Church is a big way. I find it sickening and embarrassing that it was happening in my country till so recently but the power the Church had in Ireland till recently was immense. That’s over now thanks be to god 😉 My mother went to school with some of the kids from the Dublin laundry and was jealous of them because she was living in abject poverty at home and thought they had it easy. How wrong she was. She was in tears looking at a documentary about it that was screened here a few years ago. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2003, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/29 "2003-07-10T21:21:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bayonet1976 \* > I felt it was relevant to point out that institutional abuse of children is not confined to the RCC, or individual dioceses in the RCC, thus the problem is not just not an “Irish problem” or “Australian problem.”, but also **not just an RCC problem.** > > Now, if the OP’s intent was to piss on the RCC then obviously my posts in this thread are wasted. The difference here is that, unlike Castro, the RCC is by and large subject to Western jurisprudence. In the instance of the child molestation scandals, with priests being shuffled to protect the guilty, it is impossible for most people to believe that the American RCC hierarchy, at least, was ignorant of what was going on, and we’re wondering (like **Ben** ) where the criminal conspiracy investigation is. It also seems to be a stretch that, with two apparently very similar RCC-run child-labor camps on opposite sides of the world, nobody very high up in the RCC knew about these, either. So, where the heck is the investigation? Is the RCC still untouchable, excepting the priests who did the actual molestations, or what? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/30 "2003-07-11T02:46:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hazel \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > Originally posted by JThunder > > So you claim. However, is there ANY tenet of their religion which commands them to commit this atrocity? Is there any tenet which can be reasonably construed as commanding such actions? Any tenet whatsoever? > > I said, “as they see it” – I don’t see it; they see it. Or claim to. \*\* In which case, the problem is with those people, and not with their religion. Religion merely becomes a convenient excuse for them, since no _reasonable_ individual would conclude that their religion actually commands such actions toward the children. And that is why it’s specious to ask, > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hazel \* > **Would any of these things have happened if we were all animists, Buddhists, or atheists?** Since religion was merely an excuse, they most probably would have done so anyway. As **Neurotik** pointed out, there is no lack of atheist societies which have done far worse. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/31 "2003-07-11T04:06:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\* > People are just jerks no matter how you cut it. \*\* Agreed. > [@](#): > > Hare Krishnas sued for child abuse > > Victims file $400 million lawsuit alleging years of torture > > MSNBC News, June 12, 2000 > DALLAS, June 12 - More than three dozen former students of Hare Krishna boarding schools filed a $400 million lawsuit against leaders of the religious community Monday, alleging years of sexual, physical and emotional torture. > > Plaintiffs’ attorney Windle Turley called the abuse “the most unthinkable abuse and maltreatment of little children we have seen. It includes rape, sexual abuse, physical torture and emotional terror of children as young as 3 years of age.” > > He said ISKCON knowingly allowed suspected sex offenders to work in its boarding schools. (from [http://www.rickross.com/reference/krishna/krishna22.html](http://www.rickross.com/reference/krishna/krishna22.html) ) ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 11, 2003, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/32 "2003-07-11T19:26:47Z")
I’m not sure I understand you, bayonet1976. Are you arguing that the RCC and Cuban government are both evil, or that neither is? ---
**Author:** ![Rodrigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Rodrigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodrigo)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/33 "2003-07-12T12:28:46Z")
Come on! Show me ANY group of people and I’ll show you scandal. 1. Salve-kids: How about those mentally handicapped kids in the US in the 50’s who were given radioactive corn flakes?. 2. Paedophilia: You’d be surprised that married men and homosexual men are meny times more likely to do it than celibate guys. 3. It looks that some posts were written in the 19th century, the POWER of the Catholic Church… If the Pope could force us catholics to do his whim (I love the guy BTW) you’d be complaining and when he doesn’t you complain. But please, how many “Catholic” politicians in the US constatnly contradict catholic rules like abortion in public, where are the catholic goons breaking the legs? 4. Buddhists are nice guys, but it’s clear you haven’t seen them fighting for temples. 5. Cut the paranoia people 6. I wonder why non-catholics or even atheist are so keen on trying to change the Catholic Church. Can’t remember the last time Michael Jordan commented on “fake punting”. ---
**Author:** ![Hazel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Hazel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hazel)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/34 "2003-07-12T13:05:01Z")
Rodrigo… What is “fake punting”? ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/35 "2003-07-12T13:18:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rodrigo \* > \*\*3) It looks that some posts were written in the 19th century, the POWER of the Catholic Church… \*\* Try 20th century Ireland. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/36 "2003-07-12T14:48:39Z")
Regarding those “orphanages” in Australia: the “60 Minutes” expose a few years ago claimed that British children were shipped to camps in Australia (operated by the RCC). In these camps, children were forced to labor for no pay, and physical abuse was common.What I did not realize-these children NEVER weregiven Austarlian citizenship! They are (effectively) stateless persons! How COULD the Australian government EVER allowed this to happen? ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [July 12, 2003, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/37 "2003-07-12T16:09:16Z")
Nobody asked ME but here’s my take on the meaning of the position of those who have answered OP question 2 beyong the narrow RCC focus: (a) All these events are evil (b) All those responsible have done evil © Those responsible, for either doing or allowing to happen, should be brought to Justice _proportionately to their involvement_ and not be protected from it for having done it in the name of God, or The Church, or Public Morals, or Marx, or whatever. (d) “c” above includes whatever civil authorities (re: religions) and outside observers (re: governments) could have done something yet enabled it all by looking the other way in the case of specific religious or ideological practices (e) OTOH affiliate organizations that would not have been involved should not be dragged down by association and the accounting should not be specifically targeted for extra severity nor be a-priori denied defense on account of whether the excuse is God, the Church, Public Morals, Marx, etc. (f) Framing the process of seeking Justice in a context of specifically “getting” the RCC (or the Communists, or Islam, or Globalist Capitalism, or whatever) through a “hunt” actually **hinders** the achievement of Justice as we have to waste our time separating those interested in Justice from those simply interested in nailing a specific group. IOW we could be figuring out how to achieve the goal of having these crimes duly investigated, exposed, and punished, rather than arguing over whether someone just wants to piss on the RCC. ---
**Author:** ![Rodrigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Rodrigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodrigo)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586/38 "2003-07-13T04:45:39Z")
Fake Punting: A (American) football play with which you “show” you’re going to punt (kick the ball to your opponent) but actually play the ball trying to use surprise to your advantage. \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_- Try 20th century Ireland * * * What I meant is that the phrases and excuses and reasons are so old that they seem taken from those days (19th century). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-churchs-child-slave-labor-camps/186586.md?page=1)