# Catholic dopers, what's this tradition about? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 21, 2001, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715 "2001-10-21T18:12:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/21 "2001-10-23T03:09:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kat \* > \*\*IME, it’s always been 3 readings: first from the Old Testament, second from the New Testament (non-Gospel) and third is the Gospel. That’s from a rather small sampling of Catholic churches in the upper Midwest though. \*\* Four points: 1. The readings are the same throughout the US, each Sunday. 2. I had always believed the order of readings was OT reading, Psalm, NT reading, Gospel reading. However, this is not always true. For instance, notice the second reading from [September 2](http://www.easterbrooks.com/ccgi-bin/Cathcal.cgi?20010902) is from the book of Hebrews. 3. It appears from the above site that weekday masses only have one non-Gospel reading. I see **doreen** beat me to this, but I should point out that the one reading may be either OT or NT. 4. Another surprise to me: the responsorial psalm is not always from the book of Psalms. E.g., for October 22 it is from Luke. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/22 "2001-10-23T03:27:30Z")
> [@](#): > > For instance, notice the second reading from September 2 is from the book of Hebrews. …which is in the New Testament. There are other exceptions, though: At several times of year, both of the first two readings will be from the New Testament, and Revelations, when it shows up, is usually given as the first reading (presumably since it’s a prophetic book, unlike the others of the NT). The Gospel is, with a few case-by-case exceptions, read by a priest or deacon, and is never one of the first two, but on Christmas or Easter, there can be multiple readings from the Gospels (I’ve seen masses with as many as seven or eight readings, total). ---
**Author:** ![dqa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dqa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dqa)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/23 "2001-10-23T03:32:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Chronos \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > For instance, notice the second reading from September 2 is from the book of Hebrews. > > …which is in the New Testament.\*\* Duhh…Well, three out of four ain’t bad. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/24 "2001-10-23T03:35:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dqa \* > \*\*4. Another surprise to me: the responsorial psalm is not always from the book of Psalms. E.g., for October 22 it is from Luke. \*\* That particular passage from Luke is often used as a responsorial piece. For example, in the Anglican liturgy it’s used in the Mattins service, and is called the “Benedictus.” ---
**Author:** ![typo\_mna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eb8c5e/32.png) [@typo\_mna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/typo_mna)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/25 "2001-10-23T06:46:57Z")
I was pretty sure that the gospel reading was done by a family member of one of the couple, followed by the gesture in question, followed by the homily. The first two readings (from Song of Songs, and I Corinthians, respectively) have the reader’s names listed, but the last one doesn’t, so perhaps the priest did, in fact, perform it, and my memory is faulty. I’m sure the gesture occurred after the bible reading, however. The priest mentioned that he’s a Jesuit, does that make any difference? ---
**Author:** ![AndyJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8491ac/32.png) [@AndyJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyJ)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/26 "2001-10-23T09:27:49Z")
When I was a kid and an alter boy I remember somthing like this. The Priest said somthing like, “This is a reading from the Gospel of St.xxx”. The head, lips and heart thing was then done. At the end of the reading the Priest says, “That was a reading from the Gospel of St.xxx”. Then the congragation would say, “Praise be to God”. Maybe that’s what you heard. ---
**Author:** ![hermn8r](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/53a042/32.png) [@hermn8r](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hermn8r)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/27 "2001-10-23T14:25:27Z")
When a deacon is present it is he who will ALWAYS read the Gospel. The ‘triple sign of the cross’ is taken from the blessing that the priest gives the deacon before he reads. In the absence of an assisting deacon, the priest, of course, reads the Gospel and uses a similar, unspoken prayer formula. The ‘procedure’ and words are here: > [@](#): > > E. Gospel–everyone stands. The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the words of Jesus Christ. The deacon always proclaims the Gospel when he is assisting the priest at the mass. At the beginning the Gospel Acclamation he walks over to the priest and asks for a blessing **“Father may I have your blessing?”** The priest then blesses him with these words; **“May the Lord be in your heart and on your lips that you may worthily proclaim the Gospel of the Lord.”** At the ambo the deacon proclaims this two thousand year old invocation: “The Lord be with you.” And you respond as you have for two thousand years; “And also with you.” And he says " A reading from the Gospel according to Matthew, Mark, Luke or John, depending on which cycle the church is in at the time. Then he makes the sign of the cross on the book and then on his forehead, his lips and then his heart saying: **“May the Lord open my mind to place on my lips, what you have sealed within my heart.”** Or words similar to that. > > After the Gospel is proclaimed the deacon kisses the book and says quietly to himself: **"May the words of the Gospel wipe away our sins."** This is taken from this site: [http://frterry.org/Mass/mass\_p2.htm](http://frterry.org/Mass/mass_p2.htm) There are many more similar reference sites. H ---
**Author:** ![AndyJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8491ac/32.png) [@AndyJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyJ)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/28 "2001-10-23T14:44:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hermn8r \* > \*\*“The Lord be with you.” And you respond as you have for two thousand years; “And also with you.” Sounds a bit different to what I remember. Though we didn’t have anyone except the priest read. I do remember a part of the mass though where you would turn to the person next to you shake his hand and say, “Peace be with you”. To which they would reply, “And also with you.” ---
**Author:** ![grimpixie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecb155/32.png) [@grimpixie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grimpixie)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/29 "2001-10-23T15:27:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by red\_dragon60 \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by AskNott \* > > \*\*I once heard, in a movie review, of a mnemonic to remember which way the crossing is done. “Spectacles, testicles, wallet, watch.” > > > > –Nott \*\* > > That would be from Austin Powers 2. \*\* Hmmmm - I think it is from “Nuns on the Run” - but I haven’t seen AP2, so it may well be there as well… Gp ---
**Author:** ![AndyJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8491ac/32.png) [@AndyJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AndyJ)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/30 "2001-10-23T15:33:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by grimpixie \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by red\_dragon60 \* > > \*\* > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by AskNott \* > > > \*\*I once heard, in a movie review, of a mnemonic to remember which way the crossing is done. “Spectacles, testicles, wallet, watch.” > > > > > > –Nott \*\* > > > > That would be from Austin Powers 2. \*\* > > Hmmmm - I think it is from “Nuns on the Run” - but I haven’t seen AP2, so it may well be there as well… > > Gp \*\* I don’t actually think it’s from any of these films. My grandad says it and I doubt he’s seen any of these films. ---
**Author:** ![Blind\_Guardian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df705f/32.png) [@Blind\_Guardian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blind_Guardian)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/31 "2001-10-23T16:01:48Z")
The fact that the priest presiding at the wedding was a Jesuit shouldn’t make any difference. The ideally ought to be celebrated the same way by any priest, though quite a few do take the liberty to improvise things according to their own tastes. The ideal is that the Mass is something universal belonging to the whole church, not something belonging to the priest that he can tinker with as he sees fit. That said, I have never seen the triple-crossing done at any part of the liturgy other than right before the Gospel. Are you sure you’re remembering the sequence of events properly? The sequence of events is (Priest/Deacon): **"The Lord be with you."** (All): **"And also with you."** (P/D): **"A reading from the Holy Gospel according to St. {N.}"** (All): **"Glory to you, O Lord."** The people then bless themselves with the gesture discussed in the posts, which basically covers all the meanings mentioned by other posters. The Gospel reading is proclaimed, after which the priest or deacon says: **"The Gospel of the Lord."** (All): **"Praise to you, Lord Jesus Christ."** I don’t recall ever seeing a standard explanation for what precisely it means, but the general gist of the gesture is hard to miss. As one of my professors has said more than once, the measure of a good liturgical action is that its meaning will be understood without somebody needing to stop and explain it. You may need to think about it, but it isn’t something utterly incomprehensible. (Mircea Eliade, Louis Dupre, and Karl Rahner (among others) have excellent insights on the nature of the religious symbol, the implications of which I’m still trying to work out for myself a year after I took a course on Symbolic Theology.) I think that more or less handles any concerns I had concerning the OP. I’d just like to make a few points about readings at Mass as just a FYI in response to a few things I’ve seen here and there in the post. You don’t really need to read any further if you don’t want to. On Sundays and solemnities, there are three readings. The first is usually from the OT, but at certain times of the year (most notably during Lent and the Easter Season), readings from Revelation or the Acts of the Apostles may be proclaimed instead. Following the first reading is the Responsorial Psalm, which is typically taken from one of the OT psalms. There are a few exceptions, however, which are more properly called canticles. The example that most readily comes to mind is, as **dqa** mentioned, the Benedictus or Canticle of Zechariah. Taken from Luke 1:68-79, these are the words Zechariah speaks as he holds his infant son, John the Baptist. And somewhat analagous to the Anglican Mattins service mentioned by **Northern Piper** , the Benedictus is sung daily as part of the Catholic Liturgy of the Hours (also called the Divine Office) as part of Lauds (Morning Prayer). The Responsorial Psalm is so named because it in some way responds to the first reading. The next time any of you are at Mass, try to see how the first reading and psalm fit together. The second reading is always taken from one of the New Testament Epistles. The Epistle does not necessarily connect with the other readings of the day, but the epistles often do have a continuity with each other from week to week. Often, readings will come from successive passages of the same letter for several weeks. The final scriptural reading is always from one of the Gospels, and is always proclaimed by either a priest or a deacon. **hermn8r** ’s post handled the subject of the proclamation of the gospel quite well. I’ll just add that the Gospel and the first reading go together, so again, it’s often interesting to look for connecting themes among the readings. The readings for Sunday Masses are on a three year cycle, which is currently in year C. In each year of the cycle, the majority of the Gospel readings will come from a single evangelist, Matthew (Year A), Mark (Year B), or Luke (Year C). The Gospel of John is proclaimed most often on various holy days and solemnities. A daily Mass only has two readings and a psalm. The first reading can either be an Epistle or an Old Testament reading. The psalm follows the reading, and then the Gospel is proclaimed immediately afterward. The readings for daily masses are on a two year cycle, which is currently in year 1. Before Vatican II, there were two readings and a psalm, following the format which is currently used for daily masses. I _believe_ that the same readings were used every year, but I can’t remember off hand. In addition the first chapter of John (“In the beginning was the Word,” etc.) was proclaimed at the very end of the Tridentine Mass after the dismissal, interestingly enough. And finally, to touch on what **Chronos** said, there are as many as eight readings proclaimed at the Easter Vigil, which is the most important Mass of the entire year on the liturgical calendar. Many parishes only do a few of the readings, because the Vigil is an extremely long Mass already. The point of all those readings, however, is telling the story of the history of God’s relationship with mankind, from Genesis to the resurrection of Jesus. In part, this is done because new members will be initiated into the Church later in the Mass. During the Sunday Masses of the preceding weeks, the catechumens had been entrusted with different elements of our Catholic faith and heritage. The readings at the Easter Vigil are the final step of this symbolic catechesis before the catechumens become full members of the Church. Since the Gospel **is** good news being proclaimed, the Mass is something we should be celebrating, not suffering through. Wow, I’ve written way more than I originally intended, and now I need to get to class. I can hope that I’ve contributed in some small way to the discussion at hand. ---
**Author:** ![Blind\_Guardian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df705f/32.png) [@Blind\_Guardian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blind_Guardian)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2001, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715/32 "2001-10-23T16:08:59Z")
> [@](#): > > I do remember a part of the mass though where you would turn to the person next to you shake his hand and say, “Peace be with you”. To which they would reply, “And also with you.” That’s much later in the Mass. It’s called the Pax, or the Sign of Peace. It occurs shortly before communion. The priest says: **"The peace of the Lord be with you always."** (All): **"And also with you."** (Priest, or the Deacon if one is present): **"Let us offer one another the sign of God’s peace."** And from there, people turn to their neighbors and shake hands with them, exchanging the greeting noted above in the quote. And now, I’m **REALLY** off to class. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-dopers-whats-this-tradition-about/88715.md?page=1)