# Catholic Excommunication **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 19, 2003, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282 "2003-10-19T01:14:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/21 "2003-10-19T23:19:30Z")
I don’t think it’s being immature to want to be excommunicated. Some people may not want to have an affiliation with this or that. If there is something you are really against, you would want it to be known, and you sure wouldn’t want to be associated with something you were totally against. Maybe to some they may see it as making a dfference in some way… My husband was baptized Catholic, and I know he wanted to be excommunicated. He just doesn’t want to be associated with the RCC in any way, shape, or form. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/22 "2003-10-20T00:23:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*I don’t think it’s being immature to want to be excommunicated. Some people may not want to have an affiliation with this or that. If there is something you are really against, you would want it to be known, and you sure wouldn’t want to be associated with something you were totally against. Maybe to some they may see it as making a dfference in some way… > My husband was baptized Catholic, and I know he wanted to be excommunicated. He just doesn’t want to be associated with the RCC in any way, shape, or form. \*\* Well, can’t he just not go to church, and tell all his buddies and relatives that he doesn’t go to church? He could even take out a full-page ad in the New York Times expressing his break with the church. That should make his disassociation pretty clear. Why does the RCC have to participate by going through a meaning excommunication ritual? Ultimately, doesn’t this hinge on being concerned about what other people think of you? ---
**Author:** ![DaisyFace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@DaisyFace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DaisyFace)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/23 "2003-10-20T00:30:54Z")
All of this discussion seems to point to something very important. It’s an **individual** choice to be part of a group, from glee club to organized religion. To remove oneself from said group is also a personal choice. In this case, it could be argued, a choice between the person and God. What does it matter if a person is “officially” excommunicated from an organization they say they want nothing to do with? “Excuse me, I want to break away from you, you know, do my own thing, but I wanna make damn sure you know I don’t care about you anymore.” Also, if one is _worried_ about becoming excommunicated, it would indicate a reluctance to leave entirely. After all, if one did not want to be a member of the catholic Church anymore, what would it matter if they wanted you or not? If you want out, you want out. So excommunication wouldn’t be a punishment or anything else. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/24 "2003-10-20T00:36:33Z")
Err, a meaning_less_ excommunication ritual, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/25 "2003-10-20T00:46:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DaisyFace \* > What does it matter if a person is “officially” excommunicated from an organization they say they want nothing to do with? “Excuse me, I want to break away from you, you know, do my own thing, but I wanna make damn sure you know I don’t care about you anymore.” In Seinfeldian terms, that means you have “hand”. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/26 "2003-10-20T00:52:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\* > My husband was baptized Catholic, and I know he wanted to be excommunicated. He just doesn’t want to be associated with the RCC in any way, shape, or form. \*\* If your husband was baptized Catholic, and now he’s another religion, then he is excommunicated, isn’t he? Isn’t that sort of an automatic thing? ---
**Author:** ![bindera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4da419/32.png) [@bindera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bindera)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/27 "2003-10-20T01:34:32Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Tallayan_ > What would you think you would acheive by getting exommunicated? Precisely. I don’t really think that it would help the situation at all. In fact, I’d rather avoid it, for reasons below. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Bricker_ > I can understand - although not support - your parents forcing you to attend Mass. But forcing you to take communion borders on the sin of sacrilege, in my view, since only you are in a position to know if you are properly disposed to take the sacrament. That was why I became concerned with the excommunication in the first place. Thank you for bringing that up. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Daisy Face_ > Also, if one is worried about becoming excommunicated, it would indicate a reluctance to leave entirely. Yes, but in my case, it could effect other things as well. Since the rest of my family is Catholic, it would be complicated, and they would see it as a dishonor to the family. It really doesn’t bother me as much that I have to stay with the church until I’m eighteen, but if others would get involved, and by some small chance I would be excommunicated, it could cause problems for me. It’s not really the excommunication I’m worried about, but the effects of it. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/28 "2003-10-20T03:38:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > \*\*On further reflection, doesn’t _wanting_ to be excommunicated betray a certain immaturity? If it’s not enough to simply not participate in any Catholic rituals or attend Catholic churches, how much more “out” do you need to be? Deliberately seeking excommunication is like breaking up with a girlfriend, and wanting her to _know_ that breaking up was _your_ decision, and wanting to know that she knows, and wanting her to know that you know that she knows, ad infinitum. > > If you don’t want to be a Catholic, just declare yourself to not be a Catholic. Why should recognition of that decision from a bunch of people you no longer care about matter to you? \*\* I’d have to agree with this. Making a show of leaving does strike me as immature. I could see someone doing this to get attention, or perhaps some newly converted fundie evangelical who wanted to embrace his newly-adopted hatred for the Catholic Church in an official manner. BTW, it seems like some people in this thread are commenting as if they think that the OP _wants_ to be excommunicated. The article linked to near the top of the thread took that sort of view, not the OP who actually _didn’t_ want to be excommunicated and was asking the question from that viewpoint. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/29 "2003-10-20T03:58:30Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t really think that it would help the situation at all. In fact, I’d rather avoid it I do not think you have anything to worry about. Even when Bishop Bruskewitz made his big show of declaring people excommunicated, he made it clear that, in his mind,\* they were excommunicating themselves. There was no effort to make a formal exercise of the act. For a formal declaration of excommunication, there actually has to be an official review of the situation, similar to a trial. The church simply has no interest in going through that much work simply to embarrass someone. Believe me, if the RCC never took the trouble to formally excommunicate Lefebvre, who was calling the pope and the cardinals nasty names, accusing _them_ of heresy and apostasy, and violating a number of canon laws in the process, they are not going to expend a lot of energy to make your life more miserable. I do hope that you and your family can come to some sort of rapprochement on this issue. - And pretty much only in his mind, as the rest of the church did not go along with him. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/30 "2003-10-20T07:56:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bryan Ekers \* > Couldn’t you just put your fingers in your ears and go “nananananana” whenever a Catholic tries to talk to you? Nah, arms get tired after a while. And _some_ Catholics don’t wear identifiable insignia (and too many people wear a cross), so you don’t even KNOW you’ve been talking to them for a while, and at that point you might as well just give up. **literatelady** , were some of your fellow teen church members to actually go to a priest about this, I suspect it would go under the “gossip from church members” heading, and even if the priest did follow up on it, he would have to be some sort of corrupted person to take significant or negative action against you (probably would tell you to pray about it or read your Bible or something like that, unless he actually discussed it with you at length). My parents required me to go to mass as well. Having not been to confession for any number of years, I didnt’t have to worry about receiving the gifts of any particular spirit. It also gave me the occasional half hour of free time. Regardless, perhaps you should go and commit a mortal sin\* and not repent of it just so communion won’t affect your soul. \*Some of them are really quite unspectacular, in case anyone thought I was advocating that **literatelady** go shoot a cafeteria full of people. Grave matter, serious reflection, full consent of the will is all that’s required to make a sin mortal. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/31 "2003-10-20T13:48:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\*I don’t think it’s being immature to want to be excommunicated. Some people may not want to have an affiliation with this or that. If there is something you are really against, you would want it to be known, and you sure wouldn’t want to be associated with something you were totally against. Maybe to some they may see it as making a dfference in some way… > My husband was baptized Catholic, and I know he wanted to be excommunicated. He just doesn’t want to be associated with the RCC in any way, shape, or form. \*\* Personal request, **Jersey** , – elsewhere, where he can speak for himself, I’d very much like to hear his reasoning and feelings behind what you say in this last paragraph. Not in an effort to provoke argument but to understand his perspective. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/32 "2003-10-20T14:00:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*_I do not think you have anything to worry about. Even when Bishop Bruskewitz made his big show of declaring people excommunicated, he made it clear that, in his mind,_ they were excommunicating themselves. \*\* Hmmm. I have to quibble a “bit” with this. There was no “formal excommunication” procedure initiated by Bruskewitz, but I think he went farther then saying “If you belong to group X, it’s my opinion that you have excommunicated yourself”. > [@](#): > > Any Catholics in and of the Diocese of Lincoln who attain or retain membership in any of the above listed organizations or groups after April 15, 1996, are by that very fact (ipso-facto-latae sententiae) under interdict \*\*and are absolutely forbidden to receive Holy Communion.\_ \*\* Contumacious persistence in such membership for one\_ month following the interdict on part of any such Catholics will by that very fact (ipso-facto-latae sententiae) cause them to be excommunicated.\_ Absolution from these ecclesial censures is “reserved the\_ Bishop.”\_ This notice, when published in the Southern Nebraska Register, is a formal canonical warning. From [here](http://sfbayc.org/magazine/html/sfbay_catholic__nebraska_excom.htm) Maybe we’re quibbling over details, but the business about “you are forbidden to receive communion” seems to put a more umm “forceful” emphasis behind his “opinion”. I of course, don’t know to what extent the bishop could enforce such an edict. For the intersted, there is a good summary of the bishop’s actions [here](http://sfbayc.org/magazine/html/bruskewitz.htm). Specifically, Canon 1318 > [@](#): > > A legislator is not to threaten automatic penalties (“latae sententiae”)unless perhaps against certain particularly treacherous offenses which either can result in more serious scandal or cannot be effectively\_ punished by means of inflicted penalties (“ferendae sententiae”); a legislator is not to establish censures, especially excommunication, except with the greatest moderation and only for more serious offenses. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/33 "2003-10-20T14:36:24Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by RexDart_ - > \*\*Making a show of leaving does strike me as immature. I could see someone doing this to get attention, or perhaps some newly converted fundie evangelical who wanted to embrace his newly-adopted hatred for the Catholic Church in an official manner. > \*\* Or perhaps some newly faithless atheist who wanted to express his hatred for all things religious and draw attention to himself. 😉 Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/34 "2003-10-20T15:45:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Hitler - not excommunicated (rather than hurl “Well, you’re Excommunicated!” at him, the Church hurled “Well, you just Excommunicated yourself!” - but not until after the war) I don’t believe the Chuch could excommunicate him, since he wasn’t to my knowledge a Catholic. Guy Who Isn’t Catholic: Grah! Me do Bad Stuff! RCC: Oh Yeah!? Well, you can’t take part in the sacraments anymore! Its very questionable as to whether hitler was even close to being Christian anymore, and for my money he wasn’t, nor were most of the Nazi leadership. The ordinary folks, Nazi or not, remained so. Except for the ones Hitler didn’t like and killed. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/35 "2003-10-20T16:53:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by smiling bandit \* > \*\*I don’t believe the Chuch could excommunicate him, since he wasn’t to my knowledge a Catholic. \*\* No exactly true. Supposedly, [Mussolini](http://www.aberdeennews.com/mld/aberdeennews/news/world/6877026.htm) suggested that he be excommunicated (even though, as you suggested, it’s hard to imagine that Hitler thought of himself as a Catholic, by that point in his life) \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/36 "2003-10-20T17:26:34Z")
Hitler was raised Catholic, but I do not believe he ever practiced the religion as an adult. (He did make a few political statements asserting his membership, but he made as many or more statements indicating that he considered religion, in General, and the Catholic Church in particular, to be an obstacle to Germany’s "destiny.) I think that it is telling, in regards to the Mussolini story, that Mussolini’s suggestion would have been delivered to Pope Pius **XI** who was rather firecely anti-Fascist and anti-racist. Excommunication is used by the church to tell someone who thinks they are Catholic, but who is acting outside the norms of the Churchg that they must shape up or they cannot be a member. There is no point in excommunicating someone who has no intention of remaining Catholic. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/37 "2003-10-20T22:31:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shodan \* > \*\*Or perhaps some newly faithless atheist who wanted to express his hatred for all things religious and draw attention to himself. 😉 > > Regards, > Shodan \*\* LOL, quite true, quite true. Some atheists do really make a show of it and harp incessantly about their atheism as much as a born-again’er does about his/her fundie-ism. I like to think I avoided that for the most part, but then my parents were _American_ Baptists, a pretty liberal church, so it wasn’t all that big a deal. **tomndebb** : have they excommunicated the sedevacantists then? Seems like they would meet the criteria. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/38 "2003-10-20T22:52:22Z")
> [@](#): > > have they excommunicated the sedevacantists Only by announcing that people who hold that position have put themselves outside the church. I have never seen a reference to a formal excommunication of any among that group. (Even when Lefevbre ordained some bishops, in clear violation of his authority, the Vatican merely issued a statement that they were saddened by his decision to step outside the church.) ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2003, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/39 "2003-10-20T23:49:36Z")
So pretty much, according to Cecil, “once a Catholic, always a Catholic?” 😉 ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2003, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282/40 "2003-10-21T04:32:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > \*\*Personal request, **Jersey** , – elsewhere, where he can speak for himself, I’d very much like to hear his reasoning and feelings behind what you say in this last paragraph. Not in an effort to provoke argument but to understand his perspective. \*\* I passed your request on to him. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-excommunication/208282.md?page=1)