# Catholic fishing for Anglican defectors? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 21, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547 "2009-10-21T00:54:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/21 "2009-10-22T01:40:42Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > … All you have to do is recognize the Pope, and you can keep everything else exactly the same as you’ve always had it!". How can anyone not recognize the Pope/ He’s the guy with the big hat in the clown car. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/22 "2009-10-22T02:16:18Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Now that the Anglicans have started ordaining women, that’s another major (in the eyes of Rome, at least) difference between the two, but that’s exactly what this is addressing: “If you don’t want to ordain women but you still want to be connected to a larger worldwide Church, join us! All you have to do is recognize the Pope, and you can keep everything else exactly the same as you’ve always had it!”. [Pope Palpatine] Join the dark side, we have cookies! [/PP] 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/23 "2009-10-22T03:40:32Z")
So as the non-Christian op I am confused. African Anglican churches are, according to **jayjay** , to the “Right” of the Catholic Church on gay issues. Yet this “come to us if you find your Anglican Church too liberal on gays and women’s issues” move is designed to attract them? Are they thinking that the whole African Anglican movement will institutionally join up with the Catholic Church out of disgust with what American Anglicans are doing? And how about my second part? Will Anglicans try to encourage American Catholics upset over various immutable Church positions - on women’s rights and the place of women in the Church, acceptance of gays, abortion, etc. - to give Anglicanism a try? And how we put the following, from the link in the op, together? > [@](#): > > The Vatican announcement immediately raised questions about how it would be received within the Anglican Communion and the prospects for continued ecumenical talks between the Vatican and Archbishop of Canterbury. > > Noticeably, no one from the Vatican’s office on relations with Anglicans and other Christians attended the news conference; Levada said he had invited representatives to attend but they said they were all away from Rome. > > However, the Vatican’s archbishop of Westminster and Rowan Williams, the Archbishop of Canterbury and spiritual head of the global Anglican church, issued a joint statement, saying the decision “brings an end to a period of uncertainty” for Anglicans wishing to join the Catholic Church. The statement said the decision in fact could not have happened had there not been such fruitful dialogue between the two. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/24 "2009-10-22T04:08:40Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > There is significantly more to it theologically than that – while an Anglican may accept transubstantiation or the Immaculate Conception, they’re not mandative doctrines. And on many political issues (abortion and gay rights, for starters), Anglicans and Catholics seem to be on opposite sides of the fence. Well you know very well that Anglicans are on both sides of that fence, which is one of the reasons that this invitation is being taken so seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 4:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/25 "2009-10-22T04:25:41Z")
Presumably the RCC is interested only in Anglicans on one side of that fence? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/26 "2009-10-22T05:23:15Z")
But there are also Catholics on both sides too - at least in America. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/27 "2009-10-22T06:19:14Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Only if he was married to them. He was married to Thomas More? 😕😃 I wonder how Jerusalem sounds in Latin anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/28 "2009-10-22T13:12:23Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > But there are also Catholics on both sides too - at least in America. Yes but the Church has a kind of “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy on some of that controversial stuff. If they had to take official notice of how the beliefs and practices of every individual member deviate from doctrine, there wouldn’t be all that many Catholics left standing. I’d imagine the biggest one of all (in terms of practices the church disapproves of) would be birth control. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/29 "2009-10-22T13:32:55Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Yes but the Church has a kind of “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy on some of that controversial stuff. If they had to take official notice of how the beliefs and practices of every individual member deviate from doctrine, there wouldn’t be all that many Catholics left standing. I’d imagine the biggest one of all (in terms of practices the church disapproves of) would be birth control. Actually, I’d guess the biggest one would be church attendance. The number of nominal Catholics who are in a state of mortal sin the majority of the year due to skipping the Sabbath is probably astronomical. I’m not counting “lapsed” Catholics, like myself, but people who still consider themselves Catholics, and still attend Mass at Christmas and Easter. There are a LOT of those… ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/30 "2009-10-22T14:18:09Z")
I’m not even lapsed; I’m “ex-” and it’s been a long time. I thought that it wasn’t a requirement to attend every week, but there as some kind of minimum, possibly associated with certain holidays like Christmas or Easter. If I’m mis-remembering, then I’m sure you’re right. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/31 "2009-10-22T14:37:00Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’m not even lapsed; I’m “ex-” and it’s been a long time. I thought that it wasn’t a requirement to attend every week, but there as some kind of minimum, possibly associated with certain holidays like Christmas or Easter. If I’m mis-remembering, then I’m sure you’re right. It’s possible that I’m getting that one from my mother. When I was a child, we went to church EVERY Sunday (or Saturday night), even when we had to drive 40 miles to find a Catholic church to go to (i.e., when we were camping or something). And we were forced to go to Confession if we missed it. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/32 "2009-10-22T15:34:38Z")
There was a brief story on NPR this morning about this, and the commentator pointed out that if there is a significant migration from Anglicanism to the RCC, it would likely do two things: strengthen the liberal base of the Anglican Communions (especially the Episcopal Church) by accelerating the departure of conservatives; and strenthen the conservative base of the RCC. Athough Anglicans across the board tend to be more liberal than Catholics on issues such as birth control, most Anglo-Catholics are closer to the RCC’s official position on sexuality, abortion, and other social issues. Giving disaffected Episcopalian conservatives another place to go won’t do The Episcopal Church (TEC) any favors. According to it’s own numbers, active membership is already down 8.5% since 2004 and weekly attendance is down 11.3% in the same period. Thats over 38,000 lost members a year - about the size of an average diocese. Many conservative Episcopalians haven’t left because of a high-church ecclesiology that makes them reluctant to join a breakaway, splinter or schismatic church such as the groups that have formed in America. I would not have the same hesitations about moving to Rome. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/33 "2009-10-22T15:42:52Z")
As I’ve said before, I would make a horrible Christian (or at least a horrible Anglican), because my first reaction to the conservative Episcopalian/Anglican drama would be to wave bye-bye and say “au revoir…we’ll be closer to Christ without you”. I just can’t muster the stubborn will to retain fellowship with people who consider me lesser. ---
**Author:** ![Skammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skammer/32/143_2.png) [@Skammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skammer)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/34 "2009-10-22T19:35:29Z")
Concerning the Africans, there is an article exploring their reaction in the current [_Christian Science Monitor_](http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/1021/p06s15-woaf.html): > [@](#): > > Early indications from African bishops are that most Anglicans, despite their fierce opposition to homosexuality, will be saying “thanks but no thanks” to Rome’s new offer, largely because of the autonomy that they enjoy within the Anglican church. > > “I don’t think that priests in Uganda are going to leave and join the Roman Catholic church,” says Bishop Stanley Ntagali, head of an Anglican diocese in the east African country of Uganda. “Uganda is [already] a separate region from the Church in Canterbury. They are able to do things their way, and we have to do things our way.” Which is about the reaction I would have expected. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/35 "2009-10-22T20:11:37Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > I’m not even lapsed; I’m “ex-” and it’s been a long time. I thought that it wasn’t a requirement to attend every week, but there as some kind of minimum, possibly associated with certain holidays like Christmas or Easter. If I’m mis-remembering, then I’m sure you’re right. There is a requirement to attend on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation. You may be thinking of the instruction that while one should receive communion at Mass whenever possible, one is only required to receive on Easter. (Also, depending how the calendar falls, and where you are, individual Holy Days may not be deemed obligatory. Saturday evening Mass can now sometimes count for the Holy Day and Sunday. This is partly because of the priest shortage in bigger states.) ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/36 "2009-10-22T20:19:39Z")
> [@Skammer](#): > > Which is about the reaction I would have expected. It’s the logical response from them. The Catholic Church is way too gay-friendly for the African Anglicans. They don’t even wink and nod at the murder and beating of gay men and lesbians, or advocate the jailing of those who so much as witness gay wedding/commitment ceremonies! Rome is practically Sodom II to these folks… ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/37 "2009-10-22T20:23:54Z")
> [@](#): > > I’m not even lapsed; I’m “ex-” and it’s been a long time. I thought that it wasn’t a requirement to attend every week, but there as some kind of minimum, possibly associated with certain holidays like Christmas or Easter. If I’m mis-remembering, then I’m sure you’re right. The minimum is what’s referred to as the Holy Days of Obligation, which includes Christmas, Easter, and about a half-dozen other feasts spread throughout the year… Plus each and every Sunday. ---
**Author:** ![Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/bb73d2/32.png) [@Jimmy\_Joe\_Meager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jimmy_Joe_Meager)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/38 "2009-10-22T20:34:38Z")
Obligatory religious fishing joke… Why should you always take \*two \*Baptists with you fishing? Because if you only invite one he’ll drink all your beer! ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/39 "2009-10-22T21:12:39Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The minimum is what’s referred to as the Holy Days of Obligation, which includes Christmas, Easter, and about a half-dozen other feasts spread throughout the year… Plus each and every Sunday. No wonder I dumped them. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 22, 2009, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547/40 "2009-10-22T21:25:38Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > The minimum is what’s referred to as the Holy Days of Obligation, which includes Christmas, Easter, and about a half-dozen other feasts spread throughout the year… Plus each and every Sunday. The specific Holy Days of Obligation for a given country are set by that country’s Primate or by its council of bishops, I think. Some, like Christmas and Easter, are obligatory across the board, but some are of only national significance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-fishing-for-anglican-defectors/514547.md?page=3)