# Catholic heirarchy questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 18, 2002, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675 "2002-12-18T22:48:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/1 "2002-12-18T22:48:47Z")
OK, please bear with me if they seem obvious, but here goes: 1. What is the difference between a diocese and an archdiocese? Strictly the size? Is an archdiocese constituted of smaller dioceses (is that the proper plural?) or is it simply a very large diocese? 2. Are all diocese headed by a bishop or cardinal? 3. Is an archbishop of a higher “rank” than a bishop, or is an archbishop simply a bishop who heads an archdiocese? 4. I’ve noticed that when an archbishop is appointed to certain archdioceses (such as New York, for example), they are often promoted to cardinal within a fairly short period of time. Is there some rule (written or just strong tradition) that certain dioceses are to be headed by cardinals rather than bishops or archbishops? 5. Can one be a bishop or cardinal while not heading a diocese? 6. I understand that the higher “ranks” are the Pope, Cardinals (three different levels), Archbishops (or maybe just bishops). Are there any “ranks” between a priest and a bishop? Did I miss any further up? 7. Have there ever been cases of cardinals or bishops who were “demoted?” Is there even such a concept? If Law, for example, had refused to resign, could he have been stripped of his cardinal rights/privliges/rank, etc.? I understand that I may be using the term “rank” incorrectly in this case, considering that the church is not a military or paramilitary organization. If so, is there a better term to use? Thank you in advance. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/2 "2002-12-18T23:21:32Z")
1. Archdiocese is headed by an Archbishop, who is over several Bishops 2. AFAIK, a Cardinal isn’t nessesarily a Bishop or an Archbishop, and would have to be one to head a diocese. 3. Yes, Archbishops are higher. 4. AFAIK even an Abbot could become a Cardinal, thus again, there is not nessesarily a direct relation. However, in the USA & other nations, that is the way it usually happens, yes. 5. Not sure. But I am pretty sure you can be a Cardinal without heading a diocese. 6 Monsignor is between Priest & Bishop 7 I think so. Any “ranks” in the Jewish faith? ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/3 "2002-12-18T23:25:00Z")
IIRC any priest the pope wants can be a cardinal. And doing so does not mean he will be made a bishop. I know you don’t have to be a cardinal or a bishop to be pope. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/4 "2002-12-18T23:28:16Z")
5 One can be a bishop without heading a diocese. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/5 "2002-12-18T23:29:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by doreen \* > \*\*5 One can be a bishop without heading a diocese. \*\* Don’t people who become bishops who don’t have actual charge of a diocese get a titular diocese? ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/6 "2002-12-18T23:31:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lee \* > \*\* I know you don’t have to be a cardinal or a bishop to be pope. \*\* Again, I’m no authority, but I seem to recall it being made a rule sometime within the last 200 years that in order to be elected pope you have to be an active cardinal. Am I wrong on this? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/7 "2002-12-18T23:32:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\*Any “ranks” in the Jewish faith? \*\* No. It is true that certain cities and/or countries may have a “Chief Rabbi” but it’s not part of any existing hierarchy. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/8 "2002-12-18T23:33:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by DrDeth \* > \*\*4. AFAIK even an Abbot could become a Cardinal, thus again, there is not nessesarily a direct relation. \*\* What is an Abbot and how does he fit into the grand scheme? Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/9 "2002-12-18T23:41:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > \*\*What is an Abbot and how does he fit into the grand scheme? > \*\* Abbots are outside it. Bishops, archbishops, etc. are what are called “secular clergy”. They have authority over certain areas and the Catholics there…Archbishop of New York over all Catholics in the NY archdiocese, Bishop of Brooklyn over all Catholics in the Brooklyn diocese, etc. There’s another set of clergy who make up what are called the “religious orders” These are groups like the Franciscans, the Dominicans, the Jesuits, etc., who take special vows and, instead of being loyal to the bishop in the diocese where they’re living, are loyal to the head of their religious order. A lot of members of religious orders live communally, in a lot of cases, in what are called abbeys. The head of an abbey is called an abbot. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/10 "2002-12-18T23:48:17Z")
From [here](http://www.thejournalnews.com/cardinal/about_001.html) > [@](#): > > CARDINAL > Chosen by the pope to serve as his principal assistants and advisers in the central administration of church affairs. The cardinals vote in a papal election. Some of them preside over archdioceses while others hold high positions in the Vatican. > > ARCHBISHOP > A bishop who governs an archdiocese while simultaneously presiding over the bishops and other clergy of a well-defined district. > > BISHOP > Chief pastor of a diocese entrusted to it by the Vatican. The difference between a diocese and an archdiocese is generally one of size and population. > > MONSIGNOR > A title given to a priest who usually serves as either pastor of a large parish or an administrator in a diocese or archdiocese. > > PASTOR > The priest in charge of a parish. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/11 "2002-12-18T23:50:24Z")
Right- the heads of some of these Orders pack some pretty hefty “weight” at the Vatican, even if they aren’t “even a Bishop”. Of course, their power has waned somewhat since their heyday, several hundred years ago. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/12 "2002-12-18T23:51:51Z")
1. There is a strong tradition that certain archdioceses are headed by a cardinal; anyone appointed to that archdiocese will end up being made a cardinal. However, I don’t think this is written. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2002, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/13 "2002-12-18T23:53:53Z")
[Here’s](http://members.ozemail.com.au/~acolyte/Roman_Catholic_Vestments/hierarchy.html) a very detailed account of the Catholic hierarchy. ---
**Author:** ![BobT](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8e8cbc/32.png) [@BobT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobT)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/14 "2002-12-19T00:05:45Z")
From a protocol standpoint, abbots are treated as if they were bishops. My brother had his wedding performed by an abbot and I later found out that this requires a lot of clout. ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/15 "2002-12-19T00:05:51Z")
> [@](#): > > * * * > > ## Originally posted by doreen 5 One can be a bishop without heading a diocese. > > Don’t people who become bishops who don’t have actual charge of a diocese get a titular diocese? Yes, but the titular diocese is one that no longer exists. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/16 "2002-12-19T00:13:37Z")
Right, so they head a diocese, just a…non-existant one, which frees up their time. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/17 "2002-12-19T00:15:12Z")
Ah, and colibri’s site makes it clear that in the few cases of someone not being a Bishop before being given their red cap, they are made one upon becoming a Cardinal, although it can be one of the “honorary” ones, without a Diocese. And I had forgotten about Patriarchs/Metropolitians. And we are forgetting Deacons & Archdeacons. It looks like a “Chief Rabbi” somehwta equates to a “Primate” (see that site). But are there not also Preists, HighPreists, & Cantors? ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/18 "2002-12-19T00:20:15Z")
**Zev** , Just to make things more confusing, here are a couple more terms, some of which come from the Eastern Rites of the Catholic Church (and Eastern Orthodoxy, as well).[list=1][li]Eparchy - Synonymous with diocese[/li][li]Archeparchy - Synonymous with archdiocese[/li][li]Metropolitan - Bishop of a metropolitan see (now usually called an archbishop)[/li]Archimandrite - Occasional Eastern title for abbots or arch-abbots[/list=1]And, some additional info on deacons. They are ordained (i.e., they have received the Sacrament of Holy Orders) and may be married. They assist in parish functions, and may witness marriages, read the gospel, preach the homily, perform baptisms, and assist the priest at Mass. The other sacraments are reserved to ordained priests. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/19 "2002-12-19T01:42:12Z")
Sheesh marie. There seems to be some room for correction even of the thorough link offered by **Colibri**. > [@](#): > > Most cardinals are previously bishops before receiving the title, but, if they are not, they are ordained bishop before being made cardinal. This is not always true; the Pope may permit a man to decline episcopal ordination before being made cardinal. This happened just last year, when Fr. Avery Dulles, a Jesuit theologian, was made a Cardinal without episcopal ordination. While there is much made of the “governance” of a metropolitan archbishop over his suffragan dioceses, the reality is that he has very little actual authority. The archbishop may hear confessions anywhere in his province, and may celebrate Mass in any church in his province. He may also appoint a diocesan administrator if a suffragan see is vacant and the college of consultors has failed to act. That’s it. Every bishop is the executive, judicial, and legislative authority in his diocese, and subject directly to the Holy See. An archbishop has no real “line of command” authority. Nor, by the way, does a monsignor, which is an honorary title that carries no governing authority. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![lothos2002](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/df788c/32.png) [@lothos2002](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lothos2002)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2002, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675/20 "2002-12-19T03:26:48Z")
Also, the Abbot is not necessarily the head of an Order, only of a portion of that Order who live in a certain Abbey. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-heirarchy-questions/143675.md?page=2)