# Catholic sex-haver seeks an ear **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [December 14, 2007, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976 "2007-12-14T07:12:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2007, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976/81 "2007-12-18T11:22:28Z")
[QUOTE=Beaucarnea] Thank you for sharing your experience. When I was younger I watched many of my friends suffer in the same manner: constantly certain that God was watching and disappointed in minor failures, and _disgusted_ with their natural urges. Perfectionism manifested in every conceivable manner of self-loathing: eating disorders, cutting, depression, drug abuse; shame. The more pious their childhood, the more unhappy their adult lives. If you don’t mind me asking, what triggered your change of attitude? [/QUOTE] I’m not completely sure what triggered it; it might have been a survival instinct\* kicking in, knowing something had to change. The biggest force was my loving and caring boyfriend, but I had begun the process of changing before that. And yes, it’s the “I must be perfect” attitude that was doing me in. Please realize that I honestly did _not_ believe that it applied to anyone else. No one _else_ needed to be perfect, just me. I’m a natural girly girl, but during these years I looked almost totally unfeminine, because I honestly believed people would laugh at ME trying to look pretty (“psh, who does she think she is? She’s hideous and trying to wear a pretty dress? hahahahahahaha!”). Every single thing I did, I felt that others were secretly laughing at how pathetic I was. I pushed my friends away, starved myself\*\*, demanded perfection in schoolwork while slacking off juuuuuuust enough to not get it (so I could then keep hating myself). I never got into cutting because I have this thing about bleeding, but I would scratch the same spot over and over and over; if you got to where the skin turned pink, it would feel burn-y for the next day or so when things hit it and it would scab and scar. I don’t necessarily blame the Catholic faith itself. Let me use an analogy from What Not To Wear. I told you I was a girly girl. 🙂 They get these makeovers who wear torn up sweatpants and stained shirts everywhere. They’ll show this lady a “running errands” outfit that’s ridiculously over-dressed; satiny blouse, skirt, high heels, fancy jewelry and a funky purse. Sure, it’d be great if the makover-ee was able to do that. They don’t really _expect that_, though. What they’re doing is showing the one extreme (messy slobbiness) the other extreme (very dressy) in the hopes that she will just get somewhere in the middle (nice fitting jeans and a cute, well-fitting tshirt with non-slobby sneakers or flats). The problem is that there are some people :: waves at everyone :: who will hear their instructions and feel _they absolutely have to live up to that standard now_. Period, end of story. Middle ground isn’t good enough; that’s not what we were told to reach for, so anything less is failure. That’s a personality quirk. Unfortunately it’s a ‘quirk’ that can result in tragedy if you don’t curb it.\*\*\* - I really don’t mean to denegrate the Catholic faith, which I know could sound that way with “survival instinct”. \*\* Partly because yes, I was fat, but the bigger satisfaction was thinking, “Take that. THAT is what you deserve”. \*\*\* Hell, I still feel that I suck at what I do, even though at my job I’ve received awesome compliments from my manager (and _his manager_), really really nice raises and performance reviews. When my manager says, “oh, I need to talk to you for a minute”, my very very very first instinct is, “OHMYGOD I’M FIRED. They figured out how awful I am at this!” ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2007, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976/82 "2007-12-18T13:58:21Z")
Once you know how, it takes about one minute every morning. But it does take a little while to learn to read your body accurately. The plural of anecdote isn’t data, etc. but I’ve used it successfully (and got pregnant when I wanted to, first try), and know three other couples, who have used it exclusively for several years. No kids yet. For two, four, and three years, respectively. End hijack. ---
**Author:** ![RumMunkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@RumMunkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RumMunkey)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976/83 "2007-12-18T16:32:32Z")
[QUOTE=Lissla Lissar] …or as some call it, Natural Family Planning. Which is used both to avoid pregnancy, or to help with conception. And it’s pretty damn reliable, statistically… [/QUOTE] Cite? From everything I’ve read NFP is no more statistically reliable than having intercourse in conjunction with the phases of the moon --or what’s on TV. Furthermore, [recent thought on the subject](http://www.nytimes.com/2006/06/13/health/13rhyt.html) has indicated that NFP may actually be responsible for a great number of miscarriages due to fertilization happening on the fringe ends of the cycle (where viability is less than reliable) thus resulting in a non-viable pregnancy. This would mean many women have had miscarriages and discounted them as simply a late period because they didn’t even know they were pregnant. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2007, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976/84 "2007-12-18T16:47:47Z")
Sex is not an urge. It is the urge. It is what we are all about. Every specie is trying to pass its DNA down to the next generation. It is the reason we still exist. Repressing the sex urge ,I think,is unhealthy. Fighting over a woman is more primal than a fist fight . It is our right to procreate that we are defending. You are still a mammal trying to pass your characteristics on to the future. I am all for recreational sex. practice makes perfect. Protection is a good thing though. ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2007, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976/85 "2007-12-18T17:19:53Z")
> **[Fertility awareness](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fertility_awareness_method)** > > Fertility awareness (FA) refers to a set of practices used to determine the fertile and infertile phases of a woman's menstrual cycle. Fertility awareness methods may be used to avoid pregnancy, to achieve pregnancy, or as a way to monitor gynecological health. > Methods of identifying infertile days have been known since antiquity, but scientific knowledge gained during the past century has increased the number, variety, and especially accuracy of methods. > Systems of fertility awareness rely on ... > **[Fertility Awareness Methods | Natural Birth Control](https://www.plannedparenthood.org/learn/birth-control/fertility-awareness)** > > Fertility awareness methods (FAMs) uses ovulation predictors and calendars to design a calendar that identifies "safe days" where you can not get pregnant. [http://www.plannedparenthood.org/sexual-health/ask-dr-cullins/ask-dr-cullins-birth-control-5491.htm](http://www.plannedparenthood.org/sexual-health/ask-dr-cullins/ask-dr-cullins-birth-control-5491.htm) [http://www.brown.edu/Student\_Services/Health\_Services/Health\_Education/sexual\_health/ssc/fam.htm](http://www.brown.edu/Student_Services/Health_Services/Health_Education/sexual_health/ssc/fam.htm) I didn’t say perfect, I said pretty damn effective. 1% to 9% failure rate, if used correctly. As to the miscarriage/non-implantation article, it’s not conclusive, and I’d like to see further research. On first reading, it doesn’t bother me a whole lot that FAM may cause some fertilized ova with genetic problems to fail to implant. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2007, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976/86 "2007-12-18T17:41:26Z")
The thing about NFP is that, in the Catholic faith, it’s supposed to be used within the bonds of marriage, and you are always supposed to be open to the possibility of children anyway. I think one of the biggest problems with this area of Catholic theology, is that some people apparently alleviate some of their guilt over non-marital sex by not using artificial birth control. I personally believe that bringing a child into a relationship that might not be stable or having an abortion are far greater moral problem than using BC to prevent conception in the first place. In fact, my view of abstinence is that it’s often worth avoiding sex altogether in order to avoid those moral problems, and the spiritual issues never much came into it for me, as they seemed secondary. I think that the Church tends to talk about abstinence from a spiritual perspective, and that they might be better off discussing more about the very real possibility of pregnancy no matter what kind of BC is used, and how that can cause much more physical and spiritual harm than one roll in the hay ever could. ---
**Author:** ![Autolycus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/22d042/32.png) [@Autolycus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Autolycus)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 5:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976/87 "2007-12-21T05:39:38Z")
OK, here are some replies/comments. Sorry for the delay. If you just want my current perspective on things, then scroll down past the asterisks. [QUOTE=FriarTed] I’m not sure what’s a worse idea from a Christian perpective- that a Christian can happily & with impunity indulge in non-marital sex (PRE-marital isn’t that big a deal if indeed it is followed by marriage IMO) OR that the sex urge is not a part of the original Good Creation, but a result of the Fall. [/quote] Ah, I didnt mean that the urge itself was a result of the Fall, but the perversion of it. [QUOTE=Always Bring Pie] . . . Anger, I guess at God for all of this happening to me, so I thought, obviously it doesn’t matter much either way so I decided not to wait. . . I’m rambling I guess and of no help whatsoever, except to say that you’re not alone in pondering these things. [/quote] Always nice to have company 🙂 I’m curious; how did anger at God lead you to decide that your sexual behavior didn’t matter? > [@MissMossie](#): > > I’ve got you beat Autolycus. I’m a Catholic lesbian who wants to be a nun. I’m pretty pro-poonanny (to use your term), particularly when it’s my own. That being said, sex and masturbation don’t really fit with the life I feel God calling me to. Wow! I can’t imagine what it’s like to be gay in the Church. I mean dont we profess that homosexuality is fundamentally disordered. I’m not saying I buy it, just asking for a clarification. > [@Telperien](#): > > I don’t think you’re going to get a lot of help on this board, being that many of its members pride themselves on being rowdy nonconformist freethinkers There’s a great diversity of opinions here, and those in agreement with Christian teaching will stand out more here. I also figure they would probably have much more thought-out reasons for their beliefs. I think I’ve been right. > [@Dangerosa](#): > > Why are you Catholic? Are you Catholic because that was the default position - you were raised Catholic therefore it is what you believe? Or are you Catholic because you made a religious choice as an adult (and Confirmation in eighth grade don’t cut it) to be Catholic? Honestly, both. > [@Si blakely](#): > > But the bible makes it clear that Gods perfect plan for His people is chastity and fidelity. . . . Bordering onto GD here, but would you mind quickly elucidating? I’m not a Bible idiot, but I would like to hear your interpretation. > [@eleanorigby](#): > > And, lastly, I have no idea how old you are, but to make a decision such as yours takes courage and fortitude in this world of wall to wall porn and “hooking up” and fuck buddies etc. I wish you well. Would that more people were more disciplined in their personal lives–a lot of pain could be avoided all round. Thank you! The question is whether I need to discipline myself yet further. > [@dangermom](#): > > God gives us rules not to oppress us, but because He knows best how the human being works. I don’t know if you’ve read the Lewis essay in which he compares a person to a machine, and the commandments to the instructions. If you are a VCR, then casual sex (or other sin) is like jamming a jelly sandwich into the video slot. I totally agree with your premise, but I (at the moment) think sex in a committed relationship is a valid use of the human VCR. I dont think it’s casual sex. I dont think sex should ever be casual. > [@Whynot](#): > > As far as I’m concerned (and this thread hasn’t changed my mind), it all boils down to: early Christians didn’t have very good birth control, so preventing single parenthood and STD’s was best done by abstinence. Preventing internal discord by making girls wait until marriage so Daddy wouldn’t lose his bride-price was likely a second reason. The rest is all retcon - convoluted spiritual reasoning done to support the Ideal. This line of reasoning has affected me the most in putting my vote in the ‘premarital is acceptable’ camp. It makes perfect sense that Christians 2000 years ago would preach chastity and abstinence, but now that there are effective ways of conception, sex can be had outside marriage without such harmful consequences. Of course, Orthodox Catholics would say that sex is for union AND procreation, while I believe that it’s ok if it’s not always for procreation, that this concept was fabricated to create an umbrella which can outlaw contraception, homosexuality, and pre-marital sex, all in one neat little package. > [@Devorin](#): > > My girlfriend is Christian (although not Catholic), and happily engages in pre-marital sex without seeming to have any soul-searching. I’m not sure if she would have any useful advice for you, but I could ask, if you’d like. If you could, that would be great. I’m specifically interested in hearing things from a Christian perspective, because I’m not about to give up my faith over this issue. > [@tdn](#): > > Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly forbids pre-marital sex? Can someone quote it for me? Repeated for emphasis. > [@as\_u\_wish](#): > > . . . We do not always choose to abide by God’s principles. Everyday we make choices that can be called “sin”–whether of thought or deed. Often, from our perspective, the desire for the joy and intimacy is worth the risk. When (not if) you make such a choice, do it with gratitude to God for creating the pleasure and the understanding that you may experience hurt because God’s laws (whether of gravity or morality) do work. Take what action you can to minimize the risks of dancing on the cliff–choose a loving partner, be honest with each other, commit to each other as much as you can, take action to avoid pregnancy. . . . I agreed with your whole post, but I like that part the most. Always nice to meet a fellow Princess Bride fan too! > [@sanders](#): > > If premarital sex is a sin, then we should see some indication that you are turning in the direction of more sin. For example, you might post to a forum looking for ways to justify more premarital sex. I’m aware of the temptation to merely rationalize, and I’m doing my best to avoid it. > [@catsix](#): > > I think that it’s his faith that’s fucking him up. I think the problem is that he’s trying to live up to some ridiculous notion of ‘duty’ and beating himself up for doing something that is a normal, healthy part of being an adult human. > > In case I’m not being clear, I don’t think his sex drive is causing the problem. I think the religion is the only problem here. I respectfully disagree. My faith is my core, my root. The object of that faith provides me with meaning and joy. My faith is not fucking me up, and neither is this struggle with one aspect of it. It’s caused a little stress, but I’m fine overall. > [@catsix](#): > > It seems pretty clear from his posts in this thread that he found guilt and pain there. He didn’t seem to be suffering until he started looking at his religion. If there’s a physical problem, then pain is a healthy reminder. If there’s a moral problem, then the same goes for guilt. My task is to find out whether the guilt is from my upbringing, or whether I’ve actually done something wrong (in the eyes of God for me, but it can work secularly too perhaps). Besides the fact that I think suffering is too strong a word, I dont think suffering is that bad if it has a purpose. I’m sorry religion and the people associated with it have hurt you so much, but I simple dont agree with your portrayal of me. > [@Telperien](#): > > Hey, guys, Autolycus basically just said that he feels some guilt. That’s all. He’s not flagellating himself every night for his sins, forbidding his girlfriend to touch him because sex is filthy and wrong, or doing anything else freaky like that. (you’re not doing those things, right?) Only on weekends 😉 * * * Sooooooo, I currently believe that sex is powerful and brings people together, and that it should not be done to anyone except those who you are prepared to be bonded to in some fasion for the rest of one’s life. While I engage in sex outside of marriage, I’m far from casual. I’m not sure, but I believe in souls, and I think they are brought together in sex. I think that the reason for Christian teachings of chastity was because there was no contraception and that sex outside marriage in early Christian days was disastrous in terms of disease and the number of resultant abortions. I still feel a little guilt, but it’s getting less and less. Again, the Christian observation is that as I have sex more often, my conscience will be numbed and I’ll feel less guilt. I think the guilt is less though because I’m more confident in the rightness of my actions. I’m not going to abandon my faith, and, because I’m at a breach with Catholic/Christian tradition, I must continue to read and educate myself more. I think sexuality is the issue of the generation, so I find it entertaining and relevant anyway. I believe the Church is wrong on this issue, and I am bound by my conscience to engage in dialogue in an attempt to clarify and spread accurate teaching. As silly as it might sound on this board, Christians are lovers of the Truth, and so I cant just let things rest with me. If anyone knows of any prominent Catholic/Christian scholars who condone pre-marital sex, that would be a great start. Of course, after further reading of the Bible and Christian teachings, I just might change my mind yet again. I’m not stressing out about it though, so dont worry about me! ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976/88 "2007-12-21T14:14:56Z")
I’m glad you came back (I thought all the “loud voices” had put you off); and I’m glad you are coming to terms with your issue in ways that are meaningful to you. ---
**Author:** ![Sanders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sanders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sanders)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976/89 "2007-12-21T15:51:41Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] Is there a passage in the Bible that explicitly forbids pre-marital sex? Can someone quote it for me? [/quote] “Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.” (1 Corinthians 7:8-9) [QUOTE=Autolycus] I’m not going to abandon my faith, and, because I’m at a breach with Catholic/Christian tradition, I must continue to read and educate myself more. [/QUOTE] _A Theology of the Body_ by Pope John Paul II. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976/90 "2007-12-21T16:29:09Z")
[QUOTE=Sanders] “Now to the unmarried and to widows, I say: it is a good thing for them to remain as they are, as I do, but if they cannot exercise self-control they should marry, for it is better to marry than to be on fire.” (1 Corinthians 7:8-9) [/QUOTE] Thank you. I suppose a good rules lawyer can worm his way out of that one. It presupposes two states, one of having no self-control and one of being married\*. Where does sharing yourself with a loved one, in a monogamous way, fit in? \*And a third state, being voluntarily celibate. And that’s supposed to be the best way? ---
**Author:** ![Sanders](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sanders](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sanders)\ **Post date:** [December 21, 2007, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976/91 "2007-12-21T18:38:37Z")
[QUOTE=tdn] I suppose a good rules lawyer can worm his way out of that one. It presupposes two states, one of having no self-control and one of being married\*. Where does sharing yourself with a loved one, in a monogamous way, fit in? \*And a third state, being voluntarily celibate. And that’s supposed to be the best way? [/QUOTE] A few lines farther down: "If anyone thinks he is behaving improperly toward his virgin, and if a critical moment has come and so it has to be, let him do as he wishes. He is committing no sin; let them get married. "The one who stands firm in his resolve, however, who is not under compulsion but has power over his own will, and has made up his mind to keep his virgin, will be doing well. “So then, the one who marries his virgin does well; the one who does not marry her will do better.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-sex-haver-seeks-an-ear/429976.md?page=4)