# Catholic tithing-matter of heart or shakedown with a crucifix? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 14, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270 "2004-10-14T21:58:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/1 "2004-10-14T21:58:08Z")
A Catholic parish is building a huge new house of worship, residence for the priest, and so forth. I’ve been watching the construction progress, and everything looks top shelf. Mentioning this to one of the local building code inspection officials, he confirmed my view, and added that they’ve got all of the financials covered, too. ??? Clarify, please? According to members of the parish that he has spoken to, the priest has visited every member, accompanied by an accountant. They review last years’s tax return, other pertinent financials, and then tell the person or couple _how much they can afford to give the church._ :eek: WTF?? According to my limited knowledge of scripture, what a person gives to the church is a private matter between them and their deity, not what the church tells them they should pony up. Any Catholic dopers care to shed some light on this? Point me to something between Genesis and Revelation endorsing this practice. Otherwise, color me totally astounded at the audacity of the whole deal. Seriously, I’d be throwin’ the good father out on his holy ass. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/2 "2004-10-14T22:12:41Z")
Why do you hate God, **danceswithcats**?? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d26b3c/32.png) [@Mr.Blue\_Sky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Blue_Sky)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/3 "2004-10-14T22:14:55Z")
“What does God need with a fancy church?” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/4 "2004-10-14T22:39:11Z")
_If the story is true_ (and I would be interested in what the actual parishoners have to say, rather than the account of some contractor who may have good data or an axe to grind), then I would say that the priest is pretty far out of line and I am surprised that the diocese is letting him get away with it. (Because if he is twisting the arms of his parishoners, _someone_ should have complained to the bishop, already.) Now, one scenario I could envision would be a moderately well off community (which might include areas geographically remote from the actual building since many of the rules about being “assigned” to a parish by location have fallen into abeyance) choosing to fund a nice spread and deciding that the pastor and his bean counter might be _invited_ by a number of parishoners to help decide on the sort of financial arrangements that could be made. This could vary anywhere from an initial “sample” group that helped establish the sort of funds that would be _asked_ of the greater group (in order to establish brackets of donations based on income) or it might be simply offered to anyone who did not think they could figure out how much they could give. Removing the home visits with accountant in tow, my parish (of which I am one of the poorer members) did something similar when we needed to increase the size of our church. The Finance Committee put together some estimates of the cost of the church and looked at census demographics to figure out what sort of incomes the _general_ population in my area earned and then put together a suggested donation schedule based on income and family size. Once the suggestion was published, however, no one was “examined” to see whether they were meeting their goal. If my parish had decided to _impose_ such a plan, the priest and beanie would be welcome to enter my house for prayer and conversation, but I would simply not permit the topic of reviewing my finances to be discussed. (I also wonder whether this is an RCC outfit or one of the smaller denominations (either Eastern Rite or recent schismatic) that have a much smaller (or no) diocese on which to rely for loans.) The story could be true exactly as portrayed. Lots of stuff happens in this world. (If it is true, I’d bet the bishop is not a happy individual right now.) ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/5 "2004-10-14T22:53:43Z")
You do know there is now a new bishop for the Diocese of Harrisburg, right? He’s the Rev. Kevin Rhoades, formerly of Mount St. Mary’s Seminary in Emmittsburg, MD. Otherwise, yeah, it sucks that people are being shaken down, but is there really any difference between a visit from the priest and an accountant and a generic guilt trip from the pulpit? Robin ---
**Author:** ![Yeticus\_Rex](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/a698b9/32.png) [@Yeticus\_Rex](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Yeticus_Rex)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/6 "2004-10-14T23:06:18Z")
Our parish expects to have our construction loan for our parish center paid off by the end of the year…which is 11 years ahead of the scheduled amortization for the loan. All this without guilt speaches or shakedowns. I would have been totally aghast had OP’s version of collecting building funds had happened with our church/priest. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/7 "2004-10-14T23:06:31Z")
The Pope wear a hat made of _gold_. It helps him **save you from the fires of** **HELL!!!** Now, you wouldn’t want him to give up his nifty gold hat now, _would you?_ ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/8 "2004-10-14T23:08:05Z")
First, I have no axe to grind with the church. Neither does the gentleman who related this to me. Were he a flake, I could discount the verity, but having known him for over 30 years, he’s not a guy to repeat falsehoods. He claims to have heard the same story from other township employees who are parishioners, and persons he comes into contact with while performing inspection work. Regarding the community, it is above average. Old farmland has been developed at a breakneck pace over the last decade, and is within one of the more desirable school districts in southeast PA. Older homes (40+y.o. 2 bdr bungalow=200K$) and Toll Bros. mini-mansions are half a mil and up. The original church on the site was ordinary church size, with a 60’s era colonial next door for the priest. Both were razed to build the new facility, in part to serve the burgeoning population. It is RCC, Philadelphia diocese. Finding the report to be astounding, but from a credible source, I turn to the teeming millions. Thanks for your input, **Tom**. BTW **Bear\_Nenno** , I don’t hate God. I disapprove of stupid self-righteous people who do stupid shit in the name of God. Big difference. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/9 "2004-10-14T23:48:24Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > …but is there really any difference between a visit from the priest and an accountant and a generic guilt trip from the pulpit? The difference between a generalized message and a specific “let’s look through your discretionary spending” home visit? Any difference between the two?🙂 Mind, I’ve never been the recipient of such. The practices outlined in the OP seem a bit much for my (ex) church. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [October 14, 2004, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/10 "2004-10-14T23:54:59Z")
Oh, it’s in suburban Philly. Never mind about Rev. Rhoades. I thought the church was somewhere near where you live. Dunno about who took over after Bevilacqua retired. And it’s positively shameful that I know that much about a religion that isn’t even mine. Robin ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/11 "2004-10-15T00:04:05Z")
You should jot down a few theses on how you feel and nail it to the door of the new church… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![JohnM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/848f3c/32.png) [@JohnM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnM)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/12 "2004-10-15T00:09:41Z")
We’re part of a new parish in the Philadelphia Archdiocese, and this certainly seems “off the reservation” to me. Our experience was similar to **tomndebb** ’s, with a finance committee establishing targets, followed up by home visits by a member of the finance team. There was no review of financial records, but rather a suggested total donation, a combination of an initial lump sum with the remainder as a 5-year commitment. The suggestion was a bit higher than we felt we could comfortably commit to (given that my wife was in the midst of being laid off), and once we stated what we could commit to that was that. ---
**Author:** ![MsRobyn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/90ced4/32.png) [@MsRobyn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MsRobyn)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/13 "2004-10-15T00:12:31Z")
> [@An Arky](#): > > You should jot down a few theses on how you feel and nail it to the door of the new church… 😃 Oh, I think [95](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/95_Theses) should be sufficient. 😃 Robin ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/14 "2004-10-15T01:01:44Z")
> [@MsRobyn](#): > > Oh, I think [95](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/95_Theses) should be sufficient. 😃 > > Robin In English, German, and Latin! (says the guy who was raised ELCA and had a visualization problem with the 95 Theses as a kid because the doors of the church were all metal.) ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 1:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/15 "2004-10-15T01:08:56Z")
Oh, and while you can get a decent English translation, I would suggest not using Babelfish. Unless you want your theses to look like: 1. (Original English translation) Our Lord and Master Jesus Christ, when He said Poenitentiam agite, willed that the whole life of believers should be repentance. 2. ('Fished German) Unser Lord und Meister Jesus Christ, als er Poenitentiam agite sagte, willten, daß das vollständige Leben der Gläubiger repentance sein sollte. 3. ('Fished 'fished English) Our lord and master Jesus Christian, when he agite Poenitentiam said, willten that the complete life of the creditors should be repentance. 4. (Original English translation) Christians are to be taught that it would be the pope’s wish, as it is his duty, to give of his own money to very many of those from whom certain hawkers of pardons cajole money, even though the church of St. Peter might have to be sold 5. ('Fished German) Christen sollen unterrichtet werden, daß es der pope’s Wunsch, da es seine Aufgabe ist, zum Geben seines eigenen Geldes zu sehr vielen von denen von sein würde, wem verleiten bestimmte Strassenverkäufer von Entschuldigungen Geld, obwohl die Kirche Str. Peter der Macht verkauft werden müssen 6. (Fished fished English) Christians are to be informed that it would too much be the pope’s desire, since it is its task for giving its own money many of those of, whom tempts certain street vendors of apologies money, although the church STR Peter of power must be sold Hey, this is fun. Too bad Babelfish doesn’t have a Latin translator. Does anyone know of an online mechanical English/Latin/Latin/English translator? ---
**Author:** ![danceswithcats](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9e8a1a/32.png) [@danceswithcats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/danceswithcats)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/16 "2004-10-15T03:25:45Z")
**JohnM** thank you. The question remaining unanswered is whether or not tithing is a matter of the heart, or church driven. Your post indicates that it is indeed the latter. Matthew 6:4-_That thine alms may be in secret_ is the verse that stuck in my head. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/17 "2004-10-15T03:33:34Z")
When I hear stories like this, I’m reminded of the time a member of the Finance Committee visited the house to ask us to pledge a tithe, invoking the Biblical command. Only problem was, instead of talking to my mother (the churchgoer) he went to my father, who replied: "Tithing made sense in Biblical times. There were only two institutions – the State and the Church. The State maintained an army and built the roads and taxed you for it. The church educated the children, fed the hungry, cared for the sick and buried the dead. “Now the state provides education for the children, health care for the elderly and food stamps for the hungry. There are many non-religious charities that also care for the needy. It makes no sense to ask for a fixed percentage of income based on how society was organized 2,000 years ago.” Many years later, I told this story to a trustee at my church. She thought for a moment and said “I’m glad your father was never a member of THIS church.” ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/18 "2004-10-15T03:35:33Z")
> [@danceswithcats](#): > > BTW **Bear\_Nenno** , I don’t hate God. I disapprove of stupid self-righteous people who do stupid shit in the name of God. Big difference. I was just kidding… Like mentioning how your thread is making Baby Jesus cry. ---
**Author:** ![moriah](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b2d939/32.png) [@moriah](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moriah)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 3:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/19 "2004-10-15T03:58:57Z")
Come on, spill the name of the parish. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [October 15, 2004, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270/20 "2004-10-15T12:50:52Z")
I’m a Catholic (practising, not just baptized), and if my parish priest, or even my bishop, or the Pope himself, showed up at my house and asked to see my tax returns, he’d be exiting through the door with my footprint on his ass. I give what I can. That’s that. Nobody gets to question my decision on how much I can give. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tithing-matter-of-heart-or-shakedown-with-a-crucifix/269270.md?page=2)