# Catholic (Tridentine Mass) Question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 15, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432 "2008-05-15T14:19:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/1 "2008-05-15T14:19:11Z")
In the latin (Tridentine) mass, one prayer was retained in its original (Koine greek) format-the “Kyrie Eleison”). Does anyone know why this was done? It is strange that the greek language prayer would be retained, as all the others went to latin. This is all water under the bridge 9since the Church didtched the Tridentine mass, in favor of the vernacular form). Anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/2 "2008-05-15T14:28:51Z")
I’ve just looked it up, and it’s interesting. As an ex-altar boy, I said this thousands of times, and knew it as the only part of the Mass in Greek, but no one ever said why. According to this site (The Catholic Encyclopedia), the prayer may even be pre-Christian (!) Nevertheless, it is NOT an orginal part of the Mass. It’s not mentioned in the oldest documents. It wasn’t even part of the original Latin mass, but was borrowed from the Eastern Churches. As such, it seems not to have been kept in an original Greek form so much as borrowed as a foreign language part in the first place, and never changed. > **[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Kyrie Eleison](https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08714a.htm)** > > Greek for 'Lord have mercy'; the Latin transliteration supposes a pronunciation as in Modern Greek, is a very old, even pre-Christian, expression used constantly in all Christian liturgies The Wiki page is much less detailed: > **[Kyrie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrie)** > > Kyrie, a transliteration of Greek Κύριε, vocative case of Κύριος (Kyrios), is a common name of an important prayer of Christian liturgy, also called the Kyrie eleison (/ˈkɪəri.eɪ ɪˈleɪ.ɪsɒn, -sən/ KEER-ee-ay il-AY-iss-on, -⁠ən; Ancient Greek: Κύριε, ἐλέησον, romanized: Kýrie eléēson, lit. 'Lord, have mercy'). > The prayer, Kyrie, eleison, "Lord, have mercy" derives from a Biblical phrase. Greek ἐλέησόν με κύριε, "have mercy on me, Lord", is the Septuagint translation of the > phrase חָנֵּנִי יְהוָ... ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/3 "2008-05-15T14:29:43Z")
I’ve just looked it up, and it’s interesting. As an ex-altar boy, I said this thousands of times, and knew it as the only part of the Mass in Greek, but no one ever said why. According to this site (The Catholic Encyclopedia), the prayer may even be pre-Christian (!) Nevertheless, it is NOT an orginal part of the Mass. It’s not mentioned in the oldest documents. It wasn’t even part of the original Latin mass, but was borrowed from the Eastern Churches. As such, it seems not to have been kept in an original Greek form so much as borrowed as a foreign language part in the first place, and never changed. > **[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Kyrie Eleison](https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08714a.htm)** > > Greek for 'Lord have mercy'; the Latin transliteration supposes a pronunciation as in Modern Greek, is a very old, even pre-Christian, expression used constantly in all Christian liturgies The Wiki page is much less detailed: > **[Kyrie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrie)** > > Kyrie, a transliteration of Greek Κύριε, vocative case of Κύριος (Kyrios), is a common name of an important prayer of Christian liturgy, also called the Kyrie eleison (/ˈkɪəri.eɪ ɪˈleɪ.ɪsɒn, -sən/ KEER-ee-ay il-AY-iss-on, -⁠ən; Ancient Greek: Κύριε, ἐλέησον, romanized: Kýrie eléēson, lit. 'Lord, have mercy'). > The prayer, Kyrie, eleison, "Lord, have mercy" derives from a Biblical phrase. Greek ἐλέησόν με κύριε, "have mercy on me, Lord", is the Septuagint translation of the > phrase חָנֵּנִי יְהוָ... The Master Speaks: [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mkyrie.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mkyrie.html) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/4 "2008-05-15T14:29:44Z")
I’ve just looked it up, and it’s interesting. As an ex-altar boy, I said this thousands of times, and knew it as the only part of the Mass in Greek, but no one ever said why. According to this site (The Catholic Encyclopedia), the prayer may even be pre-Christian (!) Nevertheless, it is NOT an orginal part of the Mass. It’s not mentioned in the oldest documents. It wasn’t even part of the original Latin mass, but was borrowed from the Eastern Churches. As such, it seems not to have been kept in an original Greek form so much as borrowed as a foreign language part in the first place, and never changed. > **[CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Kyrie Eleison](https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08714a.htm)** > > Greek for 'Lord have mercy'; the Latin transliteration supposes a pronunciation as in Modern Greek, is a very old, even pre-Christian, expression used constantly in all Christian liturgies The Wiki page is much less detailed: > **[Kyrie](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyrie)** > > Kyrie, a transliteration of Greek Κύριε, vocative case of Κύριος (Kyrios), is a common name of an important prayer of Christian liturgy, also called the Kyrie eleison (/ˈkɪəri.eɪ ɪˈleɪ.ɪsɒn, -sən/ KEER-ee-ay il-AY-iss-on, -⁠ən; Ancient Greek: Κύριε, ἐλέησον, romanized: Kýrie eléēson, lit. 'Lord, have mercy'). > The prayer, Kyrie, eleison, "Lord, have mercy" derives from a Biblical phrase. Greek ἐλέησόν με κύριε, "have mercy on me, Lord", is the Septuagint translation of the > phrase חָנֵּנִי יְהוָ... The Master Speaks: [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mkyrie.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mkyrie.html) ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/5 "2008-05-15T14:35:29Z")
Aaagh! Sorry about that. I didn’t mean to multi-post \*mea maxima culpa Kyrie eleison\* …especially for mixing my languages. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/6 "2008-05-15T15:22:24Z")
Just to nitpick, but the Tridentine mass isn’t the same as the Latin Mass. The Tridentine Mass is the version of the mass ordinary that was adopted by the Council of Trent. It was replaced in 1969 by the Novus Ordo Mass of Paul VI. At around the same time(and because of the same post-Vatican II reforms), the language of the mass changed from Latin to the vernacular. However, the new mass can also be said in Latin, just as, if the Tridentine Mass were still said today. it would be possible to say the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular. ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/7 "2008-05-15T15:29:38Z")
Another interesting point is that the Kyrie Eleison is one of the few parts of the Mass that is still sometimes said in the ancient language instead of the vernacular, especially when it is sung. Not sure why that is. ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/8 "2008-05-15T15:49:03Z")
We also sometimes sing the Angus Dei in Latin instead of the vernacular. And more rarely, the Dona Nobis Pacem. StG ---
**Author:** ![MonkeyMensch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@MonkeyMensch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MonkeyMensch)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/9 "2008-05-15T18:21:36Z")
[QUOTE=CalMeacham] … _mea maxima culpa_… [/QUOTE] I hope you beat your chest when you uttered that! ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/10 "2008-05-15T20:58:12Z")
> [@](#): > > This is all water under the bridge 9since the Church didtched the Tridentine mass, in favor of the vernacular form). Not entirely… At my parish, we still occasionally sing the Kyrie in Greek. As for the reason why the ancient language is maintaned for a few of the prayers, my guess is it’s just because the tunes were all written for the old version, and the English doesn’t scan the same way. What really bugs me, though, is one of the songs we sing occassionally has a refrain in Latin which doesn’t scan properly in Latin, either… It includes the line “Deus ibi est”, pronounced as five syllables, but in Latin, it’d be elided into four. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/11 "2008-05-15T22:16:31Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] However, the new mass can also be said in Latin, just as, if the Tridentine Mass were still said today. it would be possible to say the Tridentine Mass in the vernacular. [/QUOTE] The Tridentine Mass (also known as the traditional Roman Rite or, post last year’s motu proprio _Summorum Pontificum_, the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite) **is** still said today. Indeed, it is flourishing. It cannot be said in any language other than Latin. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2008, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/12 "2008-05-15T22:27:37Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] What really bugs me, though, is one of the songs we sing occassionally has a refrain in Latin which doesn’t scan properly in Latin, either… It includes the line “Deus ibi est”, pronounced as five syllables, but in Latin, it’d be elided into four. [/QUOTE] Whenever we sing _Ubi Caritas_ we pronounce _Deus ibi est_ with five syllables. ---
**Author:** ![Grimpen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/82dd89/32.png) [@Grimpen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grimpen)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/13 "2008-05-16T16:21:20Z")
For what it’s worth, the “kyrie eleison” response is also sometimes used in communities which are not Roman Catholic; as, for example, Lutheran. I’d consider this Greek import as being in much the same category as Hebrew words like “alleluia/hallelujah,” “hosanna,” and “amen,” which have also been imbedded in liturgy. At the very least, they can remind us that the Church didn’t begin with us. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/14 "2008-05-16T17:58:59Z")
It took me quite a while to recognize O Come All Ye Faithful as “Adeste Fideles,” which in Spain is called that even when we sing it in Spanish (rather than “Venir Fieles Todos,” its first line in Spanish). One of the most popular Peace songs at Mom’s parish has each paragraph in a different language, with the refrain in Hebrew. IOW, what **Grimpen** said. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2008, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/15 "2008-05-16T23:14:43Z")
[QUOTE=Cunctator] The Tridentine Mass (also known as the traditional Roman Rite or, post last year’s motu proprio _Summorum Pontificum_, the extraordinary form of the Roman Rite) **is** still said today. Indeed, it is flourishing. It cannot be said in any language other than Latin. [/QUOTE] I was rather surprised about this comment, znd asked at a Catholic forum I frequent. While there is no particular reason that the Tridentine liturgy could not be translated into English and used for worship, there has been no approved traanslation, and no _motu proprio_ to allow its use in the vernacular. The sole concession seems to be that the Scripture readings may be done in the vernacular, with the rest of th Mass (except, of course, the Kyrie) in Latin. Question of Catholics: Is the ancient Orthodox _Trisagion_ approved for occasional use in the Latin rite? (This is the text which in English reads: “Holy God / Holy and Mighty / Holy Immortal One / Have mercy upon us.” There are some beautiful musical xettings of it. Some churches authorize it as an alternative to the Kyrie. ---
**Author:** ![Cunctator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/43a26b/32.png) [@Cunctator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cunctator)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/16 "2008-05-17T00:45:17Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] While there is no particular reason that the Tridentine liturgy could not be translated into English and used for worship, there has been no approved traanslation, and no _motu proprio_ to allow its use in the vernacular. [/quote] I have seen English translations of the Tridentine rite, used by very, very, very High Church Anglicans. For Catholics though, the normative language for the 1962 missal remains Latin. > [@Polycarp](#): > > Question of Catholics: Is the ancient Orthodox _Trisagion_ approved for occasional use in the Latin rite? (This is the text which in English reads: “Holy God / Holy and Mighty / Holy Immortal One / Have mercy upon us.” There are some beautiful musical xettings of it. Some churches authorize it as an alternative to the Kyrie. The \*Trisagion \* forms part of the Good Friday liturgy (at the Veneration of the Cross) in both the Tridentine and Novus Ordo forms of the Roman Rite. I’ve sung many versions both in the traditional Greek and Latin, and in English. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/17 "2008-05-17T03:33:30Z")
[QUOTE=Chronos] What really bugs me, though, is one of the songs we sing occassionally has a refrain in Latin which doesn’t scan properly in Latin, either… It includes the line “Deus ibi est”, pronounced as five syllables, but in Latin, it’d be elided into four. [/QUOTE] I can’t think of an example but I also hate it when there’s a note that glides to another note, and all the other verses have a one syllable word there except for one, which has a two-syllable word there and elides it to one syllable IN ORDER TO SING THE ONE SYLLABLE IN TWO TONES! Sounds totally dorky. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2008, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholic-tridentine-mass-question/449432/18 "2008-05-17T15:02:28Z")
[QUOTE=Cunctator] I have seen English translations of the Tridentine rite, used by very, very, very High Church Anglicans. [/QUOTE] The Tridentine Mass is also said in the vernacular by some Old Catholics (who split off from the Catholic Church over First Vatican).