# Catholicism and U.S. Party Affiliation... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 21, 2003, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054 "2003-01-21T20:51:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/21 "2003-01-26T12:04:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*OK, that’s not really fair – to the Mafia. It’s conceivable that if a Mafia family supports an orphanage, its members might not kill enough people with children to make up that many orphans. Whereas Catholic opposition to birth control undoubtedly creates more unwanted kids, or kids who are wanted but whose parents can’t support them, by orders of magnitude. \*\*OK, then it should be very easy for you to support this hypothesis with some facts. Please demonstrate that the RCC teachings produce the effect you describe in the magnitude you describe. And if you can’t, then we can safely conclude that you’re ranting to vent unsupported anti-RCC hatred. > [@](#): > > \*\*I never denied it, I just said that their good works are more than offset by the evil done by their policies. \*\* Then prove it. It’s your contention. Provide evidence that this effect occurs and that it is evil and that it “more than offsets” all the good the RRC accomplishes, or it will be crystal clear what your agenda is. And it seems to have nothing to do with eradicating ignorance, chief. And I will not be responding to any additional, “The RCC is evil, 'cause I say so” bullshit. Go ahead, I’m waiting. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/22 "2003-01-26T12:19:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*Hey, if I want to specifically call you scum, I will say something along the lines of “Zweisamkeit is scum.” Same with granny and the kids and everybody else you mentioned. I was referring to the Catholic Church as a whole, not individuals, as the context of my post makes very clear. Get a grip. \*\* Damn. Never learned set theory or simple logic in that fancy schooling of yours? Let’s have a teachable moment then class! * * * All blings are scum. Zweisamkeiit is a bling. ## ergo Zweisamkeit is scum. or * * * The contents of set A are scum Zweisamkeit is in set A. ## ergo Zweisamkeit is scum As he pointed out earlier, you never distinguished between the leaders of the church…or its members., just one large entity. Today’s lesson has been brough to you by the letter “B”…as in BROAD brush strokes. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/23 "2003-01-26T14:53:36Z")
Thank you, **beagledave** , for putting it so succinctly, in a better way than I would be capable of doing. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by **Evil Captor** _: > > Just because **the Catholics** set up orphanages and such to take care of all the starving babies created by its anti-birth control and anti-abortion position doesn’t make them good. Especially since it’s reckless and irresponsible position on these issues creates problems which far outpace its ability to deal with them. Bolding mine. Notice that “The Catholic _Church_” or “the hierarcy in the Catholic Church” wasn’t used here. It was just “the Catholics”. ---
**Author:** ![TBone2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/6a8cbe/32.png) [@TBone2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TBone2)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/24 "2003-01-26T15:00:25Z")
**And I thought “B” stood for Beagledave…** Wow! I went to the fights and a Great Debate broke out!! Well, almost… If I could interrupt the festivities for a sec and refer back to the OP… > [@](#): > > Wait a minute, wait a minute, stop the music!! Is this editorial actually suggesting that it’s the Catholic morality that’s confused and inconsistent?? Not quite. Rather, the editorial (at least the portion of it that you quoted) is aligned with the common liberal philosophy that morality itself – the absolutist kind, like the Ten Commandments – is confused and inconsistent, and should therefore be discarded. The editorial attempts to justify this position by demonstrating that morality gets in the way of the practical and important business of politics by adding unwanted confusion and impractical constraints on behaviors and beliefs. The Catholic church just happened to be handy for use as an example, but the writer could have picked on just about any established religion as a representative to make the point. ---
**Author:** ![Gaijin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/838e76/32.png) [@Gaijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaijin)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/25 "2003-01-26T15:01:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\* It’s just that when you advance policies that are many times more destructive than the good works are constructive (i.e., Catholic opposition to birth control and abortion, especially in Third World countries) a reasonable person can and should figure out that you’re full of shit. \*\* This is assuming that advocating against the use of birth control and abortion is a destructive thing. I suggest you actually peruse some of the threads presently active in Great Debates. You will find that the Teeming Millions haven’t exactly resolved this one yet. The rest of the world is hotly divided as well. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2003, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/26 "2003-01-26T18:41:13Z")
I would like to thank Evil Captor for decisively showing the rest of the world that I am scum. Truly, your intelligence shineth like a beacon to the rest of us poor saps. However did we live without your genius? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/27 "2003-01-28T05:16:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RexDart \* > **EvilCaptor, your hangup about “birth control” policies seems to be a bit of a chip on your shoulder, I dont’ think you’re necessarily seeing this in the most rational light.** Lessee, Catholics try to control whether or not women have the right to use birth control (BIRTH CONTROL, not just abortion) to control their fertility. Lots of children are born to poor families who can’t support them, and to people who really don’t want them, as a result. Nah, sounds rational enough to me. Let me know if you come up with an actual argument. \*\*IMHO, the amount of good the Catholic Church has done in this world over the last 1600 years is more than enough to outweigh any supposedly negative consequences. \*\* Well, hey, I’m glad those monks preserved those manuscripts during the Dark Ages, too. But it’s kind of ancient history. I mean, I don’t see a lot of racists voting for the Democrats because they USED to be the party of racism, nah, they’re all voting Republican now. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 5:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/28 "2003-01-28T05:21:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JustPlainBryan \* > \*\*I’m afraid that’s not good enough here in **Great Debates**. Part of the reason why there is so much ignorance in this world is because of assumptions. This is why I called bad form on you in the first place. If you had said something along the lines of “Is the Catholic Church still maintaining its turning-a-blind-eye-to-child-molestation position?”, I wouldn’t have called you on it. \*\* So the “walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, must be a duck” standard doesn’t hold here, eh? I would say that it’s fair to make such observations, and also fair to hash out the evidence, or lack of it, they’re based on. I’ll grant you, the way I phrased it constituted a stylistic excess. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/29 "2003-01-28T05:42:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bob Cos \* > \*\*\*\*OK, then it should be very easy for you to support this hypothesis with some facts. Please demonstrate that the RCC teachings produce the effect you describe in the magnitude you describe. \*\* Bob, Bob, Bob. You’re asking me to do an awful lot of work to demonstrate something to the readers of a thread who uniformly are partisans opposed to my POV and hence unlikely to buy my position even if I bring enough evidence to convict a Republican mayor of murder. My contention is that Catholic positions on birth control and sex generally lead to tuns of unwanted children, especially in third World countries. So the logical thing to do is look at the number of kids in Catholic orphanages vs. the number of kids running loose on the streets or dying or otherwise suffering evidence of parental neglect in countries with strong Catholic influence (such as most Latin American countries). Then compare that to the number of kids in countries mostly free of Catholic influence who are yadda yadda. A tough grind statistically, but there are probably some pro-choice orgs that might have taken a swat at it. Most political orgs aren’t willing to take on Catholicism directly, though, so it might still be hard. I’ll prolly look into it and give you some cites if I find them. But I won’t spend a lot of time on it because I don’t think you would respect my position even if I found some great cites, for reasons already stated. \*\* And if you can’t, then we can safely conclude that you’re ranting to vent unsupported anti-RCC hatred.\*\* Sez you. I think you’ve already reached that conclusion and wouldn’t be affected by any conceivable amount of evidence. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/30 "2003-01-28T05:54:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*Lessee, Catholics try to control whether or not women have the right to use birth control (BIRTH CONTROL, not just abortion) to control their fertility. Lots of children are born to poor families who can’t support them, and to people who really don’t want them, as a result. Nah, sounds rational enough to me. \*\* Well it may very well be a rational argument in the hands of some, but you seem to be disturbed by the prohibition of birth control on a personal level which is influencing the way you’re reacting to the Catholic Church, and coloring your remarks thereupon. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Well, hey, I’m glad those monks preserved those manuscripts during the Dark Ages, too. But it’s kind of ancient history. I mean, I don’t see a lot of racists voting for the Democrats because they USED to be the party of racism, nah, they’re all voting Republican now. \*\* Wow, an anti-Republican non sequitur. I never would have expected that from you :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/31 "2003-01-28T05:54:46Z")
Would you PLEASE stop insinuating that all Catholics do this? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/32 "2003-01-28T05:56:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\* > As he pointed out earlier, you never distinguished between the leaders of the church…or its members., just one large entity. > \*\* In many of my posts I’ve used the phrases “Catholic hierarcy” “Catholic leaders” and “Catholics leadership” and in some of them I’ve used the term “Catholics.” However, I’ve pretty consistently said that my problem is with Catholic policies re: birth control (though the Catholic history on sexual issues generally and treatment of women and censorship all demonstrably suck big time). If you want to assume that I meant whenever I said “Catholic” that “each and every Catholic person, esp. beagledave’s mom, is responsible for setting these policies” you are at liberty to do so. I can’t prevent you. It’s not my understanding of how things work in Catholicism, but hey, knock yourself out. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/33 "2003-01-28T05:59:36Z")
Look, I don’t like the Catholic position on birth control either, but that’s hardly the ONLY thing there is to Catholicism. How about Oscar Romero, liberation theology, Gregor Mendel, Schubert’s _Ave Maria_, the Jesuits, the Sistine Chapel, St. Vincent de Paul? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/34 "2003-01-28T06:07:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Would you PLEASE stop insinuating that all Catholics do this? > > :rolleyes: \*\* I understand that there are plenty of folks in the Catholic Church who oppose the official position on birth control, abortion, ordination of women, etc. I understand that many Catholics are fine human beings whom I am sure it would be a pleasure to know. That doesn’t change the fact the official positions of the Catholic Church on these issues, and very evidently, the opinions of many Catholics, are as I have stated. That work better for ya? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/35 "2003-01-28T06:11:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Look, I don’t like the Catholic position on birth control either, but that’s hardly the ONLY thing there is to Catholicism. > > How about Oscar Romero, liberation theology, Gregor Mendel, Schubert’s _Ave Maria_, the Jesuits, the Sistine Chapel, St. Vincent de Paul? \*\* Sure. But I think the Catholic stand on birth control is so grossly irresponsible that it far overshadows these other things. It’s like, the Catholic hierarchy has built a pile of manure 40 feet high and it’s stinkin’ up the whole town. But there’s some nice flowers growing around its edges. ---
**Author:** ![RexDart](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b77776/32.png) [@RexDart](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RexDart)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/36 "2003-01-28T07:09:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Evil Captor \* > \*\*I understand that there are plenty of folks in the Catholic Church who oppose the official position on birth control, abortion, ordination of women, etc. I understand that many Catholics are fine human beings whom I am sure it would be a pleasure to know. > > \*\* The opposition of the Church to ordination of women is not a gender issue in the sense of opression/patriarchy/etc., it’s not really political at all. It has a theological basis, which was recently discussed here in GD, based on _different_ gender roles of people in relation to god. You’re responding with what seems like _hatred_ bubbling under the surface to what you obviously perceive as political issues, practices you’re opposed to with great personal hostility. To them, it’s just a matter of theology, and your political objections are irrelevant. You’re welcome to hold whatever beliefs you choose to hold about these issues, but you should know that you may be misunderstanding what these issues are really about, and assigning dastardly intent to what are conceived as apolitical religious doctrines. And your implication that a Catholic would have to oppose the ban on birth control, abortion, and women priests in order to be a “fine human being” is pretty judgmental. If you can’t consider someone worth knowing unless they hold particular beliefs, you’re really limiting yourself and selling those people short. Maybe you wouldn’t want to marry those people, but I assure you that persons can hold many beliefs we find ridiculous and absurd but yet be fine drinking buddies, sports watching buddies, and overall quality acquaintances. Holding a belief does not make one responsible for the actions of others who happen to hold the same belief. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [January 28, 2003, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054/37 "2003-01-28T10:51:49Z")
RexDart, Guinastasia: There is no debate taking place here. Walk away. Don’t indulge this silliness. Do you understand you’re making him happy by paying him the attention he is demanding with his nonsense? This is a person who, when asked to actually provide evidence for his inflammatory position, responded that it would be too much work and nobody would believe him anyway. There is a name for posters like this. Again, my advice: walk away. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-and-u-s-party-affiliation/150054.md?page=1)