# Catholicism - the true Anti-Christ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 18, 2004, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376 "2004-08-18T10:43:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Scarf-Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Scarf-Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarf-Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 10:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/1 "2004-08-18T10:43:31Z")
They keep the meat and hand out the parsley. They try to cause division between those with whom they don’t agree. Interpreting this verse: **Matthew 12** > [@](#): > > 12:22 Then they brought to him a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute. Jesus29 healed him so that he could speak and see.30 12:23 All the crowds were amazed and said, “Could this one be the Son of David?” 12:24 But when the Pharisees31 heard this they said, “He does not cast out demons except by the power of Beelzebul,32 the ruler33 of demons!” 12:25 Now when Jesus34 realized what they were thinking, he said to them,35 “Every kingdom divided against itself is destroyed,36 and no town or house divided against itself will stand. 12:26 So if37 Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 12:27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebul, by whom do your sons38 cast them39 out? For this reason they will be your judges. 12:28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God40 has already overtaken41 you. 12:29 How42 else can someone enter a strong man’s43 house and steal his property, unless he first ties up the strong man? Then he can thoroughly plunder the house.44 12:30 Whoever is not with me is against me,45 and whoever does not gather with me scatters.46 12:31 For this reason I tell you, people will be forgiven for every sin and blasphemy,47 but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. 12:32 Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven.48 But whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven,49 either in this age or in the age to come. _[bible.org](http://bible.org)_ to mean that they should cause division among their perceived enemies of God. They are unforgiving in every respect. They support a bloated hierarchy which delights in the sensual pleasures and riches that the gospel teaches against. How are they of Christ? For the record I am not coming in on the side of protestantism esp. Lutheranism or Calvinism, because they too missed the point of the gospel - Luther was a hater. But I expect that he was turned against the Jews by the Catholics. Sound crazy? Yes but I am enjoying this madness. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/2 "2004-08-18T10:55:45Z")
I’m not only the anti-Christ but also a Jew Hater? :eek: All bow before me, or I shall smite you with the viciousness of a \*\*Meta-Gumble \*\* Catholic-bashing thread! :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 11:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/3 "2004-08-18T11:46:05Z")
_Catholics_ are unforgiving in every respect? Well, then what’s the point of that whole “confessional” thing? I’ve never been, personally, but isn’t there usually some kind of forgiveness thrown in at the end? Unless you meant Catholics are unforgiving _of non-Catholics_ in every respect. Hey, unless they’re trying to kill me or people like me, who cares what they will or will not forgive? As bible threads go, I give this one a 2 for coherence. ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/4 "2004-08-18T12:09:57Z")
Meta-Gumble, please explain how you arrived at this conclusion: > [@](#): > > . . . Interpreting this verse: **Matthew 12**. . . to mean that they should cause division among their perceived enemies of God. . . Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/5 "2004-08-18T12:17:57Z")
> [@Bryan Ekers](#): > > As bible threads go, I give this one a 2 for coherence. On a scale of what amount? (It better have at least 7 zeros in it) 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Scarf-Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Scarf-Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarf-Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/6 "2004-08-18T12:24:28Z")
Do not class this as religious hatred - I hate only the divisive mind and it is this which Catholicism embodies. Is it wrong to hate division and all its manifestations? ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/7 "2004-08-18T12:36:12Z")
I’m not fond of long division myself. Though as a general principle I’d be averse to using religious texts as the foundation of such hatreds as I might elect to acquire. In other random thoughts, could you perhaps furnish a cite of some description that supports your view of the Papal interpretation of Matthew 12? On the other hand if **M-G** experiences a sudden departure from this madness, be so kind as to tell us and we will forget all about it. And forgive. ---
**Author:** ![Scarf-Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Scarf-Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarf-Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/8 "2004-08-18T12:43:04Z")
I couldn’t furnish a cite. ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/9 "2004-08-18T12:43:50Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > Do not class this as religious hatred - I hate only the divisive mind and it is this which Catholicism embodies. I’m almost suffering a stroke trying to figure this out. It’s not religious hatred, just a general slam on Catholocism? Damnit, I’ve been in the faith my entire life and I thought it was a religion! :smack: So what is it? An economic philosophy? A template for how to organize your closet? A new and improved shampoo? You hate divisive minds, huh? I hope you’re whooshing us, or I may think you’re tr…trying to get our goats. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/10 "2004-08-18T12:45:47Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > Do not class this as religious hatred - I hate only the divisive mind and it is this which Catholicism embodies. This being Great Debates, at this point is where you expound in support of your position, and specially present sound arguments for your interpretation of Matt. 12 AND for the very short list of statements about things you find wrong with Catholicism – e.g. what do you mean by unforgiving, with examples; how is the presence of corrupt apparatchicks in the hierarchy any different from every other large organized Christian denomination; and exactly how do they “cause division”, again with examples. Otherwise it’s not a debate, just a rant about things you don’t like about that Church. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/11 "2004-08-18T12:55:32Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > I couldn’t furnish a cite. Perhaps you were passing a quiet, sunny morning perusing Matthew, came upon Matthew 12 and the truth leapt out in a flash: “A-ha that’s how the Catholic Church schemes against its enemies.” Is that how it happened? ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/12 "2004-08-18T12:58:59Z")
**Meta-Gumble** , first you say: > [@](#): > > They try to cause division between those with whom they don’t agree. Interpreting this verse: **Matthew 12**. . . to mean that they should cause division among their perceived enemies of God. . … You are then asked, twice, for a cite (that’s what I meant by “please explain how you arrive at this conclusion”, and what \*\*sevastapol \*\* means by “could you perhaps furnish a cite”). Then you say: > [@](#): > > I couldn’t furnish a cite. So, how did you arrive at your conclusion w/r/t Catholicism? Did you just make it up? Without some backing, some statement on behalf of “official” Catholicism, your interpretation of their interpretation is just opinion. Thus, no debate. If there is no debate here, if it is indeed just your opinion, then let me offer my opnion: “no they don’t.” ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/13 "2004-08-18T13:04:11Z")
> [@sevastopol](#): > > Perhaps you were passing a quiet, sunny morning perusing Matthew, came upon Matthew 12 and the truth leapt out in a flash: “A-ha that’s how the Catholic Church schemes against its enemies.” Is that how it happened? Damnit! I **knew** the OP was going to expose our evil plan to control the world! I just hope he doesn’t mention the pact we have with the Triumverate and our use of memes! :eek: Of course, anyone not Catholic is an enemy. Now please stop revealing the secrets. :wally ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/14 "2004-08-18T13:52:49Z")
Hey, dude, everybody else left US! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/15 "2004-08-18T14:11:54Z")
> [@Mehitabel](#): > > Hey, dude, everybody else left US! 😃 Well, dear, to hear a convinced Orthodox Christian explain it, it would seem that you guys left them 950 years ago, then lost the rest of us 487 years ago (except the Old Catholics, who stuck with you until 1871). Ecclesiology is such a fun subject – everybody starts with different assumptions! BTW, **meta-gumble** , I could not make the slightest sense out of your OP. It seems others are having the same problem. A word of advice: when something seems obvious to you, and those around you are saying, “Duuh – whaaaat?” the time has come to **clarify** what you’re trying to say. (And, by the way, while I think that Catholicism has made some silly errors in its theology, you’re going to have to go a **long** way beyond a tortured exegesis of one passage of Scripture to prove to me that they’re in any way **evil** as an organization. Like any other human group, they have their saints and their villains, but as an organization, they’re intent on doing right, sometimes far too heavy-handedly, but with good intentions.) ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/16 "2004-08-18T14:29:05Z")
That’s an interesting interpretation of Matthew, and frankly one I’d never heard before. For the record, there was no Catholic (or Christian, for that matter) faith when Jesus spoke those words. I interpret them to mean He was calling down the Pharisees for accusing Jesus of working with Beelzebul. So, **Meta-Gumble** I invite you to convince me which part of the passage crticizes the Catholic religion that was to come, rather than the Pharisees who existed during that time. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/17 "2004-08-18T14:51:32Z")
> [@](#): > > to mean that they should cause division among their perceived enemies of God. By this, do you mean that we don’t openly embrace what we see as immoral behavior or incorrect beliefs? Assuming we did not do this, would we not be hypocrites? > [@](#): > > They are unforgiving in every respect. Ever gone to confession? Its very good for the soul. I’ve met some priests who were dissapointed in my behavior, but never one that was unforgiving. > [@](#): > > They support a bloated hierarchy which delights in the sensual pleasures and riches that the gospel teaches against. I’d love to see the person that would trade places with a Pope, or a Bishop, or even a priest. Frankly, the higher-ups work very long hours; the Bishops probably have it best since they have nice perks and comparitively easy jobsto the higher-ups; but the Priests really do bust their humps doing everything and don’t have really awesome digs to boast for it. And the Brothers and Sisters aren’t exactly living in luxury. The priests I’ve known are always helping some organization, studying, writing sermons, talking to people about their problems (people, priests have been psychiatrists for 2000 years and probably did and do better at it than most shrinks) and planning things out. Plus they get up at 6:00 am and do two masses a day. ---
**Author:** ![Scarf-Ace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Scarf-Ace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scarf-Ace)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/18 "2004-08-18T15:39:35Z")
[Interfaith dialogue under Roman Catholicism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition) ---
**Author:** ![Genghis\_Bob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/45deac/32.png) [@Genghis\_Bob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Genghis_Bob)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/19 "2004-08-18T15:52:26Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > [Interfaith dialogue under Roman Catholicism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition) Is this intended to support the premise of your original post, which may be one of two things: 1. The RC church interprets Mathew 12 as a mandate to “cause divisions amount their perceived enemies of God.” or, 1. You interpret Mathew 12 as an indictment of the RC church for causing etc. (I’m still unclear on your first post, and you haven’t seen fit to clarify). Or, is this an entirely new sally, in which case, have you abandoned your original argument (whatever it was)? And is your new premise that the RC church intended the Inquisition as a means of interfaith dialogue? Or are you just ranting? ---
**Author:** ![duffer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duffer/32/1026_2.png) [@duffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duffer)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2004, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376/20 "2004-08-18T15:53:29Z")
> [@Meta-Gumble](#): > > [Interfaith dialogue under Roman Catholicism](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inquisition) That’s the best you can come up with? I’d get pissed right about now, but I get the feeling I’d be more productive playing with my dog’s dick. :rolleyes: [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-the-true-anti-christ/260376.md?page=2)