# Catholicism would be pretty cool, if it was just totally different **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233 "2005-04-20T14:56:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/1 "2005-04-20T14:56:44Z")
At least, that’s the impression I’m getting from a bunch of dopers in [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=312677). Am I the only one who thinks it’s entirely unreasonable for people who are not members of a religion to demand that said religion change its policies to better suit their morals and beliefs? It’s kind of like demanding that Muslim women wear clothes like [this](http://oxtrememadness.com/brittney_spears.JPG) because it’s not fair that they be “forced” to cover up, or saying that Jewish people should eat pork because technology now keeps it fresh enough that it won’t kill you. You don’t like Catholicism? Fine then, don’t be a Catholic. But quit demanding that they rework their belief structure so that it doesn’t offend you. ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/2 "2005-04-20T15:08:06Z")
No. Should I allow an organization I believe negatively effects the world go unchallenged? ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/3 "2005-04-20T15:09:07Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > You don’t like Catholicism? Fine then, don’t be a Catholic. But quit demanding that they rework their belief structure so that it doesn’t offend you. No. Fuck the bigoted religion. ---
**Author:** ![Waverly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/57b2e6/32.png) [@Waverly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Waverly)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/4 "2005-04-20T15:09:29Z")
When a religious group has elements of mission, conversion, and particularly political influence integrated into their goals, yes, it is completely reasonable for outsiders to want to have a say. I think several, but perhaps not all, major religions fit this category. Anyone want to argue that Catholics aren’t one of them? ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/5 "2005-04-20T15:11:09Z")
I agree - but still lament the state of the Catholic Church. As I disagree with many of the policy decisions of Church, I am no longer an active member. It is sad to see an organization with so much potential to do good stay mired in centuries of toxic dogma. I am in the midst of reading a fascinating history of early Christianity. It does cause me to wonder what the Church would be like if: - The apostolic hierarchy had not won the power struggle against egalitarian gnosticism - Women had equal status - The ceremonies of the Church were practiced by lay people instead of a career clergy It is doubtful that the Church would have grown to the powerful organization it now is without a strong centralized structure (riding on the Roman empire) - but if a more egalitarian system had been able to survive, I think we’d have a healthier model of Christianity in the Church. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/6 "2005-04-20T15:15:05Z")
Frankly I’m offended by your inability to empathise with non-Catholics who feel offended by the exclusionary, Catholic-centered, RCC policies. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/7 "2005-04-20T15:23:47Z")
I’ll stop telling the Catholic Church how to behave when it stops trying to tell me how to behave. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/8 "2005-04-20T15:26:20Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > I’ll stop telling the Catholic Church how to behave when it stops trying to tell me how to behave. I have a similar relationship with the local Jehova Witnesses. I’ll stop shutting the door in their face when they stop ringing my doorbell. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/9 "2005-04-20T15:31:02Z")
> [@Waverly](#): > > When a religious group has elements of mission, conversion, and particularly political influence integrated into their goals, yes, it is completely reasonable for outsiders to want to have a say.? Hey, **Brutus**! You get to vote in the Democratic primaries! ---
**Author:** ![wonderwench](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/35a633/32.png) [@wonderwench](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonderwench)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/10 "2005-04-20T15:32:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I have a similar relationship with the local Jehova Witnesses. I’ll stop shutting the door in their face when they stop ringing my doorbell. I have a friend who has a great technique for dealing with Jehovah’s Witnesses. He likes to hang around his house in the nude. When the JWs show up, he tosses a pink feather boa around his shoulders, answers the door, and invites them in for tea. That gets rid of them pretty darn fast. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/11 "2005-04-20T15:39:52Z")
I can see and sympathize with both sides of the argument. On the one hand, the Catholic Church is (presumably, and demonstrably) going to motivate obedient Catholics to vote and otherwise affect the world that I, too, must live in, in accordance with that which constitutes Catholicism. Given that, I have many reasons for wanting them to abandon a great deal of what they’re pushing. On the other hand, there’s a certain usefulness and elegant clarity to having every major social and theological evil I consider myself ethically opposed to made manifest in a single well-known institution. (I suppose in a pinch I could make do with the Baptist Convention or the Mormon Church hierarchy instead, but even so…) ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/12 "2005-04-20T15:42:06Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Hey, **Brutus**! You get to vote in the Democratic primaries! If he lived in Illinois (and perhaps other states), he could. You can’t be a “registered” anything (Republican/Democrat) here, and simply request which party’s ballot you want at the primaries. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/13 "2005-04-20T15:45:17Z")
As non-Muslims, do we have the right to criticize the teachings of the Wahabi? Of course we fucking do. As an ex-Catholic, and a neighbor and close friend of many committed gay couples, and an all-around human being who happens to care about the suffering of my fellow humans, I am as eminently qualified to tell the RCC hierarchy exactly how, where, when, and with what number of smells and bells they should go fuck themselves as the pope is. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/14 "2005-04-20T15:45:25Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > You don’t like Catholicism? Fine then, don’t be a Catholic. But quit demanding that they rework their belief structure so that it doesn’t offend you. It’s pretty hard to ignore them when their church’s rules are a very big reason why people in my country can’t exercise control of their own body. I’m 34 and only within the last ~15 years has divorce and condoms been legal in this Catholic heavy country of mine. Not to mention all the children they’ve raped, beaten and abused. The women they’ve demonised and forced into slavery\*. I myself remember a few really good beatings I received from ‘Christian’ Brothers. Cunts. \*Yes. [Slavery is the best term for it.](http://www.netreach.net/~steed/magdalen.html) ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/15 "2005-04-20T15:50:19Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > Should I allow an organization I believe negatively effects the world go unchallenged? Challenge them all you want. Just don’t expect the Pope to take advice on how to run the RCC from an atheist. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/16 "2005-04-20T15:50:26Z")
Whoops. Forgot this bit of stupidity: > [@furt](#): > > Hey, **Brutus**! You get to vote in the Democratic primaries! Unless he’s a registered Democrat, no he can’t. But he _is_ perfectly free to tell the Democratic Party how fucked up he finds its positions, and why he thinks Dean was an absolutely terrible choice for a leader. Without actually doing any digging, I’m willing to bet that he has, at some point in the past, done just that. And that nobody started a Pit thread about how he shouldn’t criticize the Democrats because he isn’t, in fact, a Democrat. Quit being dense. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/17 "2005-04-20T15:53:33Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Challenge them all you want. Just don’t expect the Pope to take advice on how to run the RCC from an atheist. How are these two sentences not entirely contradictory? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/18 "2005-04-20T15:53:37Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Challenge them all you want. Just don’t expect the Pope to take advice on how to run the RCC from an atheist. _So_… Your are reconsidering your OP? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/19 "2005-04-20T15:57:20Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > _So_… Your are reconsidering your OP? :dubious: I see your - :dubious: … and raise you a - 😕 ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/20 "2005-04-20T16:03:14Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > You don’t like Catholicism? Fine then, don’t be a Catholic. But quit demanding that they rework their belief structure so that it doesn’t offend you. You don’t like gays? Fine then, don’t be a homosexual. But quit demanding that they rework their sexuality so that it doesn’t offend you. You don’t like condoms? Fine then, don’t wear condoms. But quit lying about their effectiveness to discourage their use among the less educated, thus killing vast numbers of people, so that it doesn’t offend you. Heck, for starters how about just not telling people that they are tainted with AIDS? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233.md?page=2)