# Catholicism would be pretty cool, if it was just totally different **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 20, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233 "2005-04-20T14:56:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/21 "2005-04-20T16:05:19Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > How are these two sentences not entirely contradictory? I don’t know. Mind explaining it? ---
**Author:** ![Scott\_Plaid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/258eb7/32.png) [@Scott\_Plaid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scott_Plaid)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/22 "2005-04-20T16:08:53Z")
::Place Long-suffering “Sigh” Smiley Here:: The last line of the OP is > [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > But quit demanding that they rework their belief structure so that it doesn’t offend you. A few post later, we find the words: > [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Challenge them all you want. Just don’t expect the Pope to take advice on how to run the RCC from an atheist. The two sentences contradict each other. Presumably, either Lord Ashtar has changed his position, or he is holding self contradictory positions. That, in short, is what I meant by the post that has confused you so. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/23 "2005-04-20T16:09:14Z")
> [@wonderwench](#): > > I agree - but still lament the state of the Catholic Church. > > As I disagree with many of the policy decisions of Church, I am no longer an active member. It is sad to see an organization with so much potential to do good stay mired in centuries of toxic dogma. > > I am in the midst of reading a fascinating history of early Christianity. It does cause me to wonder what the Church would be like if: > > - The apostolic hierarchy had not won the power struggle against egalitarian gnosticism > - Women had equal status > - The ceremonies of the Church were practiced by lay people instead of a career clergy > > It is doubtful that the Church would have grown to the powerful organization it now is without a strong centralized structure (riding on the Roman empire) - but if a more egalitarian system had been able to survive, I think we’d have a healthier model of Christianity in the Church. Actually, in the Episcopal church, the last two of your points are true, and as for “egalitarianism gnosticism”, if you mean what I think you mean by it, it’s not doing too badly. As I put it, and Episcopalian Bible study consists of people sitting around trying to sort out what something means rather than being told what it means. Then again, in a recent trainwreck, you accused me indirectly of not being religious. **Lord Ashtar** has a point. There are a lot of things in Catholicism I disagree with, several of which the new Pope appears to support. That’s why, when I had the opportunity and incentive to convert several years ago, I didn’t. As I told my Catholic fiance, I’m a reasonable Episcopalian, but I’d make a lousy Catholic! At the same time, my brother was engaged to a Catholic girl who lived in another part of the country. He did choose to convert and is raising his kids Catholic. I don’t know how much the issues which kept me from converting matter to him or what his stance on all of them are, but in his case, if he did want to marry his girl, he felt he did have to convert. He is less religious than I am. My brother has far more grounds and cause to gripe about the Pope and worry about his actions than I do. Face it, I’m perfectly entitled to disregard him. Technically, my brother doesn’t have that option. I will throw in a plug, though. If you folks like the ceremony and tradition of the Catholic church, but not the policies, as the signs say, “The Episcopal Church welcomes you.” 😉 CJ ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/24 "2005-04-20T16:17:23Z")
> [@DMC](#): > > You don’t like gays? Fine then, don’t be a homosexual. But quit demanding that they rework their sexuality so that it doesn’t offend you. With you so far… > [@DMC](#): > > You don’t like condoms? Fine then, don’t wear condoms. But quit lying about their effectiveness to discourage their use among the less educated, thus killing vast numbers of people, so that it doesn’t offend you. Heck, for starters how about just not telling people that they are tainted with AIDS? And the Vatican actively endorses this? Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/25 "2005-04-20T16:20:41Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > The two sentences contradict each other. Presumably, either Lord Ashtar has changed his position, or he is holding self contradictory positions. That, in short, is what I meant by the post that has confused you so. I see what you’re saying now. Let me attempt to clarify. The RCC, as I understand it, says that homosexual sex is immoral. Debating them on a theological level, or challenging them as you put it, I’m okay with. Jumping up and down and telling them how wrong they are because they’ve never been gay and how dare they tell you how to live your life and say you can’t be with the person you love (especially considering that most of their leaders are celebate) isn’t going to make much headway. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/26 "2005-04-20T16:21:12Z")
> [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > Presumably, either Lord Ashtar has changed his position, or he is holding self contradictory positions. That, in short, is what I meant by the post that has confused you so. Still… 😕 > [@Scott\_plaid](#): > > ::Place Long-suffering “Sigh” Smiley Here:: You said it, mate. ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/27 "2005-04-20T16:23:14Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > Jumping up and down and telling them how wrong they are because they’ve never been gay and how dare they tell you how to live your life and say you can’t be with the person you love (especially considering that most of their leaders are celebate) isn’t going to make much headway. Considering that there are a lot of priests and nuns that are gay would be another reason. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/28 "2005-04-20T16:36:30Z")
Being gay is not a sin. Engaging in homosexual acts is a sin. And whether you agree with this or not isn’t the issue. The issue is that you can’t demand that the Catholic Church endorse homosexual sex because it’s congruent with _your_ views. Well, actually, you can. But it’d be ridiculous to expect it to work. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/29 "2005-04-20T16:38:12Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > Being gay is not a sin. > Engaging in homosexual acts is a sin. You’re right. Thanks for correcting me. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/30 "2005-04-20T16:42:49Z")
> [@Lord Ashtar](#): > > I don’t know. Mind explaining it? Well, if I’m challenging a belief of the Catholic Church, is it not implicit that I am also demanding that they change? If I’m arguing against the Catholic belief that homosexuality is a sin, I think it’s an obvious, if unstated, corrolary that the Catholics should stop believing homosexuality is a sin. Else, what’s the point in the challenge? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/31 "2005-04-20T16:45:14Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > Then again, in a recent trainwreck, you accused me indirectly of not being religious. Indirectly? IIRC, she was pretty darned direct, but I’m not going back THERE to verify. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/32 "2005-04-20T16:48:02Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > And whether you agree with this or not isn’t the issue. > > The issue is that you can’t demand that the Catholic Church endorse homosexual sex because it’s congruent with _your_ views. > > Well, actually, you can. But it’d be ridiculous to expect it to work. This is exactly it. Only I would add “counterproductive” to ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Jenaroph](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e8c25b/32.png) [@Jenaroph](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jenaroph)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/33 "2005-04-20T16:51:24Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And the Vatican actively endorses this? Cite? > **[Vatican: condoms don't stop Aids](https://www.theguardian.com/world/2003/oct/09/aids)** > > The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk. > [@](#): > > The Catholic Church is telling people in countries stricken by Aids not to use condoms because they have tiny holes in them through which HIV can pass - potentially exposing thousands of people to risk. > > The church is making the claims across four continents despite a widespread scientific consensus that condoms are impermeable to HIV. > > A senior Vatican spokesman backs the claims about permeable condoms, despite assurances by the World Health Organisation that they are untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/34 "2005-04-20T16:55:53Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Well, if I’m challenging a belief of the Catholic Church, is it not implicit that I am also demanding that they change? If I’m arguing against the Catholic belief that homosexuality is a sin, I think it’s an obvious, if unstated, corrolary that the Catholics should stop believing homosexuality is a sin. Else, what’s the point in the challenge? But how are you challenging them? Are you making appeals to emotion and claiming that they don’t really understand human nature or are you going to quote Jesus and Paul? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Excellent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@Mr.Excellent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Excellent)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/35 "2005-04-20T16:56:44Z")
> [@black455](#): > > Whoops. Forgot this bit of stupidity: > > Unless he’s a registered Democrat, no he can’t. Actually, he might be able to. In some states, registered independents can choose to vote in one of the Party primaries. You can do this in New Hampshire, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 4:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/36 "2005-04-20T16:57:46Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > Being gay is not a sin. > Engaging in homosexual acts is a sin. > > And whether you agree with this or not isn’t the issue. > The issue is that you can’t demand that the Catholic Church endorse homosexual sex because it’s congruent with _your_ views. > Well, actually, you can. But it’d be ridiculous to expect it to work. If you’re saying that the argument, “The Church should stop saying homosexuality is a sin because I say so!” is ridiculous, then I agree. If you’re saying that marshalling the host of logical, moral, and theological evidence and arguments against the view of homosexuality as sinful is ridiculous, or that expecting individual Catholics to be capable of independent thought or to question their religiously indoctrinated preconceptions is ridiculous, well, I have to disagree with you on that one. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/37 "2005-04-20T17:01:28Z")
> [@Happy Scrappy Hero Pup](#): > > The issue is that you can’t demand that the Catholic Church endorse homosexual sex because it’s congruent with _your_ views. I don’t really expect the church to endorse homosexual sex, condoms, or anything of the like. I **do** expect them to stop trying to force non-Catholics to abide by the same moral code that they apply to Catholics. Is it that difficult to grasp that this “butting out” is a two-way street? ---
**Author:** ![Mr.Moto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de0a6/32.png) [@Mr.Moto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mr.Moto)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/38 "2005-04-20T17:23:28Z")
> [@Mr. Excellent](#): > > Actually, he might be able to. In some states, registered independents can choose to vote in one of the Party primaries. You can do this in New Hampshire, for example. Not just independents, sometimes. I was able to vote for John Edwards in the Virginia Democratic presidential primary, and nobody would ever mistake me for a Democrat. This can be done because Virginia does not register voters by party. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/39 "2005-04-20T17:49:26Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > If you’re saying that the argument, “The Church should stop saying homosexuality is a sin because I say so!” is ridiculous, then I agree. If you’re saying that marshalling the host of logical, moral, and theological evidence and arguments against the view of homosexuality as sinful is ridiculous, or that expecting individual Catholics to be capable of independent thought or to question their religiously indoctrinated preconceptions is ridiculous, well, I have to disagree with you on that one. Well, see, that’s the thing. Your second point is still just because you say so. You’ve got more arguments as to why you say so, but I’m still willing to bet that the Church trusts it exegesis more than it does yours. And individual Catholics are encouraged to question, because the understanding is that, at the end of the questioning, they will agree with the Church. If they don’t, well, then they’re not really Catholics any more, are they? > [@DMC](#): > > I don’t really expect the church to endorse homosexual sex, condoms, or anything of the like. I do expect them to stop trying to force non-Catholics to abide by the same moral code that they apply to Catholics. Is it that difficult to grasp that this “butting out” is a two-way street? The problem is that the Church sees homosexual sex and fornication (remember, the Church isn’t anti-condom, it’s anti- “the belief that wearing a condom makes fornication safe, which leads to an increase in fornication”) in the same vein as segregation and the second Gulf War. I don’t think anyone would refuse the Church’s help in stamping out segregation or ending the second Gulf War, but again, you can’t tell the Church, “we’ll take your help on the stuff we both think is bad, but we’ll keep right on doing the stuff on which we disagree.” ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233/40 "2005-04-20T18:11:40Z")
Texas also does not register voters by party. Typically the parties police their own primaries and only allow people on the party’s seperately-kept rolls to vote in the primary, but it would be trivial to get entry into either party’s primary. Regardless, the point does not apply because no one is saying they demand to have an actual vote in the decision making. They’re just taking issue with the decisions being made. Enjoy, Steven [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholicism-would-be-pretty-cool-if-it-was-just-totally-different/300233.md?page=3)