# Catholics and Rainbow Sashes **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 16, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053 "2005-05-16T12:19:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/1 "2005-05-16T12:19:18Z")
According to [this article,](http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/05/15/gay.communion.ap/index.html) lots of Catholics are wearing rainbow sashes to church to show support for gay people. Now some of these people are being denied communion. Apparently in St. Paul some parishoners have even knelt in the aisles to prevent other people from getting communion. Has anyone here seen this, or worn a sash themselves? If someone is so disgusted with the church that they are going to openly defy its teachings and cause a disturbance by preventing others from taking communion, why are they still attending church? Why don’t they find a nice Episcopalian church, where gays are welcomed? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/2 "2005-05-16T12:23:34Z")
For the same reason Americans against the war in Iraq don’t move to France; they see an injustice, and seek to right it. Leaving the church just avoids persecution for oneself, it does nothing to address the injustice in the church. ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/3 "2005-05-16T12:31:55Z")
> [@Douglas Quaid](#): > > If someone is so disgusted with the church that they are going to openly defy its teachings … How is disagreeing with how the church treats gay people “defying” its teachings? > [@Douglas Quaid](#): > > Why don’t they find a nice Episcopalian church, where gays are welcomed? There are plenty of Episcopal churches that don’t want gays around… ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/4 "2005-05-16T12:38:31Z")
> [@](#): > > How is disagreeing with how the church treats gay people “defying” its teachings? Disagreeing with the church may not be “defying” its teachings, but causing a disturbance to prevent others from receiving communion surely is. Even if it’s not written down somewhere, surely we can agree that this is defying the church. > [@](#): > > There are plenty of Episcopal churches that don’t want gays around… They can find one that does. Obviously they feel strongly about it. ---
**Author:** ![user\_v1.05](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/5daacb/32.png) [@user\_v1.05](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/user_v1.05)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/5 "2005-05-16T12:42:02Z")
Maybe they want to make a point without being condemned to Hell. Seems like it’s backfiring though. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/6 "2005-05-16T12:57:58Z")
I’ve never heard of the practice, but it does not sound as though simply wearing one gets a person banned from Communion. Rather, a particular group seems to have made a deliberate and publicized choice to make a specific protest and the church authorities have decided that making protests _during the liturgical worship service_ are inappropriate. (I’m not sure that I even understand what they claim to be protesting _for_, although that would be a problem with the reported story, not the group. The claims reported in the story are too vague to be meaningful.) I don’t have much sympathy for either side, with the protestors (along with a number of anti-protestors) being disruptive and the authorities issuing heavy-handed responses. If the protestors believe that by wearing a sash once a year they are going to get the whole Church to declare homosexual action not sinful, they are seriously deluded and naive. On the other hand, the actions of the bishop are just going to make the issue more divisive. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/7 "2005-05-16T13:02:45Z")
I’m not sure where I stand on this. On one hand, it’s no secret the Roman Catholic Church is anti-homosexuality. What did these people expect, to be lauded by RCC officials? If they feel that strongly about homosexual rights and still want to be a practicing Christian, find another denomination. On the other hand, why should one have to give up one’s chosen creed because of one issue? There’s something to be said for working within an organization to effectuate change. Grass-roots movements have proven to be fruitful ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/8 "2005-05-16T13:06:26Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > For the same reason Americans against the war in Iraq don’t move to France; they see an injustice, and seek to right it. Leaving the church just avoids persecution for oneself, it does nothing to address the injustice in the church. Good point Fear Itself. Since it only took the church until, what was it, 1992 to admit that the earth goes around the sun, I’m sure they’ll come around real soon. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/9 "2005-05-16T13:06:33Z")
According to the article, it was conservative parishoners that were seeking to deny communion to the sash-wearers by kneeling in the aisle. That’s inappropriate. It’s for the clergy, not the lay faithful, to determine who gets communion. Where the priest decides to deny communion to sash-wearers, that’s certainly within his rights. It’s unclear to me what the message of the sash-wearers is. If it’s, “I urge the Church to be more compassionate towards gays,” then I fail to see what the problem is. If the message is more, “I demand the Church stop calling homosexual behavior a sin, because it isn’t!” then I comprehend the problem. ---
**Author:** ![UrbanChic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/9dc877/32.png) [@UrbanChic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UrbanChic)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/10 "2005-05-16T13:07:26Z")
> [@UrbanChic](#): > > I’m not sure where I stand on this. On one hand, it’s no secret the Roman Catholic Church is anti-homosexuality. What did these people expect, to be lauded by RCC officials? If they feel that strongly about homosexual rights and still want to be a practicing Christian, find another denomination. > > On the other hand, why should one have to give up one’s chosen creed because of one issue? There’s something to be said for working within an organization to effectuate change. Grass-roots movements have proven to be fruitful Bah…stupid tab + enter combo! Grass-roots movements have provent to be fruitful all throughout history. Also, since when is supporting homosexual rights a sin worthy of Sacrament denial? If I were forced to choose a side, however, I’d grudgingly side with the RCC on this one. It’s their house, their rules. ---
**Author:** ![Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ea5d25/32.png) [@Happy\_Scrappy\_Hero\_Pup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Happy_Scrappy_Hero_Pup)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/11 "2005-05-16T13:07:34Z")
What these people fail to realize is that _being_ gay is not a sin. Regardless of whether or not you want to accept the difference between\* being a homosexual\* (not a sin) and \*engaging in homosexual acts \* (a sin), the simple fact of the matter is this: 1. How exactly do you, Mr. Aisle Blocker, know the details of someone else’s romantic life well enough to decide who to block and who to let go? I don’t presume to know God’s Mind, but if I were forced to bet, I’d put money on Him disapproving of Peeping Toms, gossips, and busybodies. 2. Judgment is God’s right, not yours. Communion is made sacred because it is between the individual and God. For you to impose on that is not only rude, I’m reasonably sure that a good half of the book of Matthew comes out directly against such jackassery. You’re supposed to love your neighbor, people. And your neighbor is everyone, regardless of religious, poitical, or any other difference you might have. Jesus knew what he was doing when he made the good neighbor in his parable a dude from Samaria. And the Samaritans had more legitimate gripes with the mainstream Jews than some uneducated moron has against his imagined great gay conspiracy. Homosexual Catholics have enough to worry about given the warring natures of their attractions and their faith. It is certainly not a cross I would want to bear. The last thing they need is a bigot tripping them during a celebration. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/12 "2005-05-16T14:06:02Z")
> [@Douglas Quaid](#): > > Good point Fear Itself. Since it only took the church until, what was it, 1992 to admit that the earth goes around the sun, I’m sure they’ll come around real soon. All the more reason to get started now. A journey of a thousand steps, and all the… > [@UrbanChic](#): > > What did these people expect, to be lauded by RCC officials? I am sure they were not surprised they were denied communion, in fact, I am certain they were counting on it. Peaceful protest is pointless unless someone notices, and by getting the priest to refuse to give them communion, they created a newsworthy event. The church is held up to scrutiny, and their goal of pressuring the church for change has been promoted through free media exposure. > [@](#): > > If they feel that strongly about homosexual rights and still want to be a practicing Christian, find another denomination. Which would change nothing regarding injustice in the Catholic church. This is not about the people wearing the sashs; many of them are not even gay. They are expressing their disapproval of the church position, and are advocating change. None of that is achieved by leaving the church. ---
**Author:** ![Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Don\_t\_Call\_Me\_Shirley](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Don_t_Call_Me_Shirley)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/13 "2005-05-16T14:12:42Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > Which would change nothing regarding injustice in the Catholic church. This is not about the people wearing the sashs; many of them are not even gay. They are expressing their disapproval of the church position, and are advocating change. None of that is achieved by leaving the church. I guess I just don’t understand the attitude. My parents switched denominations several times when I was a kid because they disagreed with some small point. Maybe this belongs in the pit, but am I the only one who sees the irony of bishops allowing practicing gay pedophile priests to continue to administer communion, (I know, I know, they’ve supposedly turned the corner on that, time will tell) but denying communion to straight people who are merely advocating better treatment for gays? I guess my mind is not nimble enough to perform the intellectual gymnastics required to decide that somehow this is a church that is worth sticking around to try and change. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/14 "2005-05-16T14:27:38Z")
> [@tomndebb](#): > > (I’m not sure that I even understand what they claim to be protesting _for_, although that would be a problem with the reported story, not the group. The claims reported in the story are too vague to be meaningful.) Here’s the group’s US website: > **[The Clickfunnel Archives](http://rainbowsashallianceusa.org/)** > > Clickfunnel Explained In Full Apparently, they > [@](#): > > proclaim that we are lesbian, gay, bisexual, and transgender people who embrace and celebrate our sexuality as a sacred gift. > In wearing the Rainbow Sash we call the Roman Catholic Church: > to honor our wisdom and experience; > to enter into public dialogue with us; > to work with us for justice and understanding. And as for what they do: > [@](#): > > Hence, Pentecost Sunday each year is the primary day when members of the movement don the Rainbow Sash and present themselves in their local cathedrals to celebrate the Eucharist with their fellow Catholics. Their presence at the cathedral is preceded by a letter to the local bishop explaining what the sash means, and informing the bishop of when and where they will be present. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/15 "2005-05-16T14:40:46Z")
> [@Douglas Quaid](#): > > Good point Fear Itself. Since it only took the church until, what was it, 1992 to admit that the earth goes around the sun, I’m sure they’ll come around real soon. :rolleyes: Wrong, by the way. The church accepted the truth of heliocentrism over 180 years ago. The 1992 apology was for the irregularities in Galileo’s trial, not an admission of his accuracy; that was long since conceded. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/16 "2005-05-16T14:42:08Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Here’s the group’s US website: > > [http://www.rainbowsashallianceusa.org/](http://www.rainbowsashallianceusa.org/) Well, based strictly on their website, I don’t see a problem with the group. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/17 "2005-05-16T15:16:01Z")
I can see how the group’s intention to “embrace and celebrate [gay, lesbian, and transgendered] sexuality as a sacred gift” can rub some members of the hierarchy the wrong way, though. It seems like they’re lobbying to get the Catholic Church to change its stance. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/18 "2005-05-16T15:31:27Z")
> [@Douglas Quaid](#): > > I guess I just don’t understand the attitude. My parents switched denominations several times when I was a kid because they disagreed with some small point. > > Maybe this belongs in the pit, but am I the only one who sees the irony of bishops allowing practicing gay pedophile priests to continue to administer communion, (I know, I know, they’ve supposedly turned the corner on that, time will tell) but denying communion to straight people who are merely advocating better treatment for gays? I guess my mind is not nimble enough to perform the intellectual gymnastics required to decide that somehow this is a church that is worth sticking around to try and change. For what it’s worth, there were a whole lot of churches (not to mention other private organizations) that wouldn’t have admitted African-Americans, or gays, or given women expanded roles without sustained pressure from inside their communities. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/19 "2005-05-16T15:47:44Z")
> [@Douglas Quaid](#): > > If someone is so disgusted with the church that they are going to openly defy its teachings and cause a disturbance by preventing others from taking communion, why are they still attending church? Not exactly a nitpick, but from the description in my paper this morning, the sash-wearers did not disturb the service at all, nor was that their intent. It sounded entirely respectful and proper. The gay group (as has been mentioned) sent a letter to the bishop ahead of time informing him of what they intended to convey by wearing the sash. And the presiding bishop at the service made an announcement that those wearing the sash were welcome to come forward for a blessing, but would not be communed. AFAICT, there was no disruption at all, from either side, or anyone else present. Nor anything tacky or disrespectful. Good for the protestors, say I. They sent a message, did nothing whatever to make anyone think less of them, and still got their point across. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![stpauler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@stpauler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/stpauler)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053/20 "2005-05-16T19:12:21Z")
I’m just a couple blocks from the Cathedral of St Paul. In fact, the Cathedral is the equidistant point between my boyfriend and me and we pass by it all the time. Anyways. [Here’s a pit thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=288393) about a story that happened last year after the Rainbow Sash Alliance had been to the church. Apparently, someone did an informal exorcism of the church: > [@](#): > > An informal exorcism performed at the Cathedral of St. Paul this month was more profane than sacred and was directed toward gay Catholics, police and church authorities said Tuesday. > > They said the ritualistic sprinkling of blessed oil and salt around the church and in donation boxes amounted to costly vandalism and possibly even a hate crime. > > The damage was discovered Nov. 7 after the noon mass, and after words were exchanged between members of the Rainbow Sash Alliance, a gay rights group, and the opposing group, Catholics Against Sacrilege. The groups are at odds over gays participating in communion, one of the holiest rites in the Catholic Church. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-and-rainbow-sashes/304053.md?page=2)