# Catholics aren't really Christian? Huh? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [January 23, 2012, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350 "2012-01-23T00:51:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/62 "2012-01-24T07:13:39Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > They weren’t known as Protestants, either. > So who does that leave? or lutherans, baptists, 7th day, etc etc. It is my studied opinion from a country that doesn’t seem to suffer the blight of fundys that it is the born again happy clappers that like to call anything that is not their version of Christianity, not christian. Of course Catholics are Christian, they just differ a bit of teachings. ---
**Author:** ![sisu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@sisu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sisu)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/63 "2012-01-24T07:24:00Z")
> [@njtt](#): > > Ha! I had a student a few years back (in a Community College) who _was_ a Catholic (or so he thought), but who assured me, in an essay, that Catholics are not Christians, and do not believe in God. Christians, he said, do believe in God, but Catholics believe in Jesus instead. (I do not think it was explicitly said, but the implication seemed to be that Christians, as he understood the word, do _not_ believe in Jesus. I guess he had not noticed that ‘Christ’ bit in the word.) > > I do not think he was a bigot, as the Protestants who say that Catholics are not Christians tend to be, just a moron. > > It occurred to me too late that I should have told him to go and talk to his priest about this. The result could have been very educational for him (maybe even get him thinking for the first time in his life), and, quite possibly, hilarious. This guy sounds like a dumbass, all religions have them and even some atheists are dunbasses. I do not consider myself Christian but that is because I don’t believe in fairy tales, but jeez if I told my catholic priest Father Mogg that he wasn’t a Christian he would look at me befuddled and say “What are talking about? Of course I’m a bloody Christian!” ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/64 "2012-01-24T12:55:39Z")
I always wonder why people who don’t believe Catholics are Christian, take the word of the Book that they believe is the word of God, or inspired by God,when they are taking the word of the RCC and Orthodox Bishops (who were united at the time) decided what was God’s word, what was inspired by God! So if one believes in the Bible they are in reality believing in the Bishops of that time, not God! They don’t accept the Gnostic Gospels either, and they were disgarded by the Council of Nicea. The apostles Creed also says I believe in the holy,catholic church! ---
**Author:** ![Lissla\_Lissar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8491ac/32.png) [@Lissla\_Lissar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lissla_Lissar)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/65 "2012-01-24T16:12:09Z")
We’ve read quite a lot of Scott Hahn. I like him, but I like Chesterton and Thomas Merton a lot better. ---
**Author:** ![SeamusMcCool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SeamusMcCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeamusMcCool)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/66 "2012-01-24T17:08:06Z")
There are many Christian denominations, of which, Roman Catholics are one. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2012, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/67 "2012-01-24T17:45:18Z")
Before we get all “Ignorant Fundamentalist-Evangelical bashing” here let me say that 1.) before Vatican II, official Catholic doctrine pretty much seemed to be that Protestants were not true Christians- I am sure you can find exceptions but Protestant-acceptance was not codified until VatII- and even so, our churches may be ‘ecclesial organizations’ (IIRC) but they are not considered part of the True Church, 2.) in the two Evangelical circles I’ve been in- the Christian & Missionary Alliance and the Assemblies of God, sentiments toward Catholicism have ranged from amiable disagreement (most common) to JackChickian paranoia (least common). The basic view has seemed to be “they are off base about a LOT but they do have the essential Christian doctrines. They need to make sure they have a personal saving faith in Jesus Christ & not just rely on their Church membership to take care of them.” ---
**Author:** ![Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Springtime\_for\_Spacers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Springtime_for_Spacers)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/68 "2012-01-25T01:37:40Z")
Thanks to all for the perspectives on Anglicanism. The way the English reformation was taught in my history lessons it was definitely presented as part of the wider Protestant reformation. We did a lot on how practices such as the selling of indulgences had led to corruption in the Catholic church. Just for giggles are there sects in the US that don’t consider Anglicans to be Christian? Papery I’ve always understood to be the Northern Irish Protestant way of pronouncing popery – see, or rather hear, the aforementioned Ian Paisley. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/69 "2012-01-25T14:42:59Z")
> [@Kimmy\_Gibbler](#): > > It’s not really that circular when you consider that one group’s beliefs originated organically starting with the Apostolic Age and the other’s was an innovation that came around about a millennium later. Funny how the Baptists seem [so loathe](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baptist_successionism) to confront this inconvenient fact. The entire concept of Protestantism is that the Catholic Church WAS NOT following the beliefs from the Apostolic age. Luther did not think he was coming up with a new interpretation of the Gospel, but pointing out the corruption that had happened over time. In fact, I know of several “apostolic” churches that teach that they alone of all the churches are still following from the apostolic age because they believe in speaking in tongues. I honestly don’t get why so many people are shocked by the idea that a denomination would say that another denomination is not Christian. They aren’t using the sociological definition that you are what you claim to be. They are using their denomination’s criteria for the term, and people of this other denomination don’t fit. And, yes, quite a few cite the statues and prayers to the saints as proof that Catholicism is idolatrous. And while I know that they aren’t supposed to be, I’ve definitely seen people who actually appear to be worshiping a statue of Mary rather than using it as a symbol while asking Mary to intercede for them. When I meet people who freak out over saying the “Blessed Virgin” but constantly say “Oh my God” and “Jesus Christ”, it’s hard for me to not think that they think Mary is more venerable than God himself. My personal belief is that it’s simpler to avoid the temptation and just not venerate anyone. ---
**Author:** ![SeamusMcCool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SeamusMcCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeamusMcCool)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/70 "2012-01-25T14:57:05Z")
> [@FriarTed](#): > > . They need to make sure they have a personal saving faith in Jesus Christ & not just rely on their Church membership to take care of them." As someone raised in a Catholic family, that sentence doesn’t make any sense to me. Jesus Christ is the central figure of the Catholic religion. The mass calendar is based around him and faith in his death (for our sins), resurrection and rising to heaven and opening up the Kingdom of Heaven for his Christian followers is the central foundation of the Roman Catholic Church. Catholics, the ones who practice anyways, don’t need some roadside snake oil salesman evangelical preacher to arrogantly say he needs to make sure they have a personal faith in Jesus and life everlasting. Jesus was always the central figure in my religious household and in the religious household of other Catholics growing up. I don’t know where the Baptists and other evangelicals got the notion that Catholics give short shrift to Jesus Christ and his role in dying for our sins and opening up the Kingdom of Heaven for his believers’ salvation. Matter of fact, until the overwhelming commercialization of Christmas, Easter was the most important religious holiday for Catholics. Many might say it still is even if it isn’t evident compared to Christmas. This would also be consistent with the fact that in Jesus’ time Jews recording the date of death was more important than recording birth dates (rare). ---
**Author:** ![SeamusMcCool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SeamusMcCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeamusMcCool)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/71 "2012-01-25T15:04:13Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > And, yes, quite a few cite the statues and prayers to the saints as proof that Catholicism is idolatrous. And while I know that they aren’t supposed to be, I’ve definitely seen people who actually appear to be worshiping a statue of Mary rather than using it as a symbol while asking Mary to intercede for them. When I meet people who freak out over saying the “Blessed Virgin” but constantly say “Oh my God” and “Jesus Christ”, it’s hard for me to not think that they think Mary is more venerable than God himself. No right thinking Catholic thinks Mary is more venerable than Jesus or God. I’ve always found it rather chauvanistic the way evangelical denominations give Mary little notice outside of her appearance in a cretch or the school Christmas play. I don’t see anything wrong with Catholics giving Mary her due respect as the mother of Christ. Whatever the optics might be regarding statues etc. the purpose of those prayers is to ask Mary or the Saint to intercede on your behalf. Rather than idoltry, it’s comforting to think there’s a Saint responsible to look after travellers if you’re a Truck driver, for example. Someone to look out for you, even if it’s just superstition still feels good. Jesus and God can’t be everywhere, so if they do exist, it makes more sense that they would build a “cabinet” of Saints to help with the heavy load of looking out for humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/72 "2012-01-25T17:11:52Z")
> [@SeamusMcCool](#): > > Jesus and God can’t be everywhere Oh yeah? If you, a Catholic, think God _needs_ the extra help, or that we lay human beings _can’t_ approach God or Jesus directly, but need a saint or a priest or a church to serve as an intermediary, that’s where I, a Protestant, have a theological dispute with you. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/73 "2012-01-25T17:22:59Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Oh yeah? If you, a Catholic, think God _needs_ the extra help, or that we lay human beings _can’t_ approach God or Jesus directly, but need a saint or a priest or a church to serve as an intermediary, that’s where I, a Protestant, have a theological dispute with you. Once again, someone prejudiced against Catholics and Catholicism by what they THINK it is. You don’t NEED an intermediary to “help” you approach God. Asking for the intercession of Saints is like bringing your prayer needs to a group of friends, and asking for their prayers. The Saints PRAY WITH YOU. Mary is always a huge tripping point, and she doesn’t need to be. She has a special place in Our Savior’s heart, because she is His MOTHER. Remember what Jesus’s first miracle was? The Wedding at Cana? His Mother saw the hosts had run out of wine, and she went to her Son. He told her “it wasn’t My Time yet.” She just turned to the servants and said, “Do whatever He tells you to.” And Jesus, at the request of His Mother, performed His first miracle. THAT relationship is special, don’t you see? BUT the most important part of that very miracle, is MARY’s instruction: “Do whatever He tells you to.” Which is her message to ALL OF US. People are not isolated, solitary beings. And as we gather together to worship, to console one another, to socialize, we gather comfort and strength from others. All of us together form the Body of Christ. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/74 "2012-01-25T17:48:46Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > Once again, someone prejudiced against Catholics and Catholicism by what they THINK it is. > > You don’t NEED an intermediary to “help” you approach God. Asking for the intercession of Saints is like bringing your prayer needs to a group of friends, and asking for their prayers. The Saints PRAY WITH YOU. For the record, this makes perfect sense, and I have no dispute with it. If official Catholic belief/doctrine doesn’t teach that “Jesus and God can’t be everywhere,” which I assume it does not, then my quibble is not with Catholicism or Catholics in general. ---
**Author:** ![SeamusMcCool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SeamusMcCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeamusMcCool)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/75 "2012-01-25T17:55:54Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Oh yeah? If you, a Catholic, think God _needs_ the extra help, or that we lay human beings _can’t_ approach God or Jesus directly, but need a saint or a priest or a church to serve as an intermediary, that’s where I, a Protestant, have a theological dispute with you. I didn’t say Catholics can’t approach God or Jesus directly. I’ve never prayed to a Saint in my life, from my recollections all the prayers taught to me have always been directly to Jesus and God with the Hail Mary as one exception. The rest is just my personal interpretation. ---
**Author:** ![SeamusMcCool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/82dd89/32.png) [@SeamusMcCool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeamusMcCool)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/76 "2012-01-25T17:58:32Z")
> [@VOW](#): > > Once again, someone prejudiced against Catholics and Catholicism by what they THINK it is. > > You don’t NEED an intermediary to “help” you approach God. Asking for the intercession of Saints is like bringing your prayer needs to a group of friends, and asking for their prayers. The Saints PRAY WITH YOU. > > Mary is always a huge tripping point, and she doesn’t need to be. She has a special place in Our Savior’s heart, because she is His MOTHER. Remember what Jesus’s first miracle was? The Wedding at Cana? His Mother saw the hosts had run out of wine, and she went to her Son. He told her “it wasn’t My Time yet.” She just turned to the servants and said, “Do whatever He tells you to.” > > And Jesus, at the request of His Mother, performed His first miracle. > > THAT relationship is special, don’t you see? > > BUT the most important part of that very miracle, is MARY’s instruction: “Do whatever He tells you to.” Which is her message to ALL OF US. > > People are not isolated, solitary beings. And as we gather together to worship, to console one another, to socialize, we gather comfort and strength from others. All of us together form the Body of Christ. > ~VOW Well put. Much better than me. I’ve been away from it for awhile, but this brings it all back to me. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/77 "2012-01-26T01:59:20Z")
Some fifteen years ago, in my old workplace, someone left a Catholic magazine in the lunch room. “Saint Anthony” magazine, something like that. I don’t recall the precise title. In it, there was a chart, naming a couple dozen Christian denominations, and indicating some of the differences. At the end of the chart was “Jehovah’s Witnesses: They are Not Christians.” I thought it was vaguely ironic, given how many people say the same about Catholics… I wrote a polite letter to the magazine’s editors, suggesting their lack of charity was undiplomatic, if not formally un-Christian. They wrote back some smiling bit of fluff, not even actually bothering to agree or disagree. (I also took the magazine to the company HR department and suggested it wasn’t proper material to be left in the lunch room… The HR director agreed completely. Not long after that, alas, there was an overly-officious crackdown, and lots of personal cubicle decorations were ordered removed. Sigh… Too much of this, too little of that…) ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/78 "2012-01-26T04:00:17Z")
> [@Sigene](#): > > During a slightly religious conversation with a friend of mine, he mentioned: “well you know, that Catholics aren’t really Christian.” > > I was pretty astounded by this. Its a totally foreign concept to me. I’m sure it is a controversial idea and probably pretty inflamatory. > > I just don’t get the idea of how anyone could justify such a thought. Would someone please fill me in on how this could have any basis in logic. > > If not logic, can you at least explain how someone can believe this to be true? Because basically they are morons. Look, I’m agnostic and I think all religions are bunk. But I hear this Catholics aren’t Christian constantly and every single time, I am astounded that someone can be that totally ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/79 "2012-01-26T04:16:30Z")
To SeamusMcCool: In reference to the Hail Mary: it isn’t really a prayer TO Mary. “Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death.” It’s a request asking her to pray FOR us. And the body of the prayer comes straight from Luke 1: 46-55. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/80 "2012-01-26T06:13:02Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > Wow, there is an amazing amount of misinformation going around in this thread. I am a Protestant, and I believe that many (and some would say most) Catholics are not Christians. > > There are several aspects of this. > > Some of this goes back to problems in self identification. There are many Baptist/Methodist/Catholics/whatever that say “I’m Baptist/Methodist/Catholic/whatever.” What they really mean is that their parents or grandparents are that, they were baptized as a baby, and one day they might get married in a church. > I’m sorry, but if you don’t really believe in the majority of their beliefs, and you don’t really live it out in your everyday life, I sincerely question your heart as a Christian. “Christian” means “follower of Christ”, and I see little evidence that you and Christ have even had a passing acquaintance. > > Ultimately, that decision is up to God, not me, to judge and decide, but if I am asked to make a decision, I think I know what I am going to go with. > > Do I think that there are Catholic Christians? Yes, I know of some. There are a lot of people in other denominations that I do not feel are Christians either. > > The other point of this is that many Protestants see certain truths to go along with Christianity. One of the basic unmovable ideas of Protestantism is that salvation comes by faith alone in Jesus as the Christ, rather than through good works. If you think you have to do something works-based to get to Heaven, we don’t know what religion you are practicing, but as far as we are concerned, it isn’t Christianity. > > Many Protestants feel that Catholics have abandoned this basic tenant of the faith. We get the impression that many Catholics think that baptism, confessing to priests, getting last rites, etc are what assist/help/allow them to get into heaven. If that is so, then we consider that a smack in the faith of what Christ teaches. > > I do not want to get into a theological discussion and take this into GD territory. I am just letting you know why many Protestants consider many Catholics not Christians. > > Edited to add: I also agree with what **FriarTed** said. I know many people who are former Catholics and who flat out say that they were not Christians before. Their belief system completely changed and they do not feel that the Catholic church is preaching the appropriate gospel. I realize all this is about perspective. I am not trying to convince you of this idea. I am just trying to explain it to you. No flames please. Reading all that, it strikes me as quite similar to how some (sometimes, the same) people call some, but not all, white people, White. They struggle to accentuate minor differences and turn them into major distinctions, while ignoring the vastly more numerous and significant similarities. P.S. Upon reading in review, I’m aware that sounded a little flame-ish, but it’s not intended as such, at all. I really just find that line of thought that it triggered interesting, and perhaps… instructive. Just thought I’d share. > [@BigT](#): > > When I meet people who freak out over saying the “Blessed Virgin” but constantly say “Oh my God” and “Jesus Christ”, it’s hard for me to not think that they think Mary is more venerable than God himself. You’ve met more than one person that thinks/acts that way? That just seems strange to me. I’ve never heard of any such “Thou shalt not take Mary’s name in vain” sentiment. Any propensity to “take names in vain” has always seemed to be fairly equal-opportunity with respect to God/Jesus/Mary/Joseph. (And, if anything, that’s in order of importance/severity of blasphemy, not the other way around.) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 26, 2012, 10:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350/81 "2012-01-26T10:08:40Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > For the record, this makes perfect sense, and I have no dispute with it. If official Catholic belief/doctrine doesn’t teach that “Jesus and God can’t be everywhere,” which I assume it does not, then my quibble is not with Catholicism or Catholics in general. It doesn’t. The way a friend put it is, “eh, I’ll let the big guy handle keeping the sun and the planets and all that big stuff moving, and talk to the little guys about things like my little toothaches…” The whole “point” of incarnation is that Jesus had toothaches too, but for many people, asking a saint who was a mother of five for help for their pregnant daughter makes more sense than asking some dude, even if the “some dude” also happens to be “the big guy”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-arent-really-christian-huh/610350.md?page=5)