A murder of crows? 
But as I said, Christ is fully human. I don’t think any of us would regard being tortured to death as just simple theater, especially if it happened to us.
Terry Pratchett has a bit in Small Gods where he says how unfortunate that an incipient religion’s God chose a shepherd as his first Prophet, rather than the goatherd in the next valley - because sheep have to be driven, but goats have to be led.
Just thought I’d throw that in there…
An important part of the story of Christ coming to earth and being crucified is that God humbled himself in order to save humankind. Humility is seen as being an important virtue, and if even God humbled himself as a kind of sacrificial lamb, there is clearly nothing wrong about his followers showing a little humility, and allowing themselves to be sheep looked after by a shepherd.
And, though I don’t believe in the theology of the whole story, I don’t find anything wrong with the ethical message contained in it: we all should show some humility, and we all depend on others to help us.
People have suffered way more than Christ did. Jesus had a bad weekend for our sins. What about people who had it worse than that? Do we let it slide with them?
Wait a second… sheep? I always assumed “flock” meant that fuzzy stuff they spray on little plastic statuettes.
Seriously though, it never really bothered me. Besides the obvious imagery of protecting a group from the savage elements of the world, a shepard’s sheep are of the utmost importance to him. You go out every morning and spend all day, every day caring for them and even sleeping among them at night. It’s a 24/7 job and your flock is your life.
Personally, I think it’s both fitting to acknowledge that we’re susceptible to the “wolves” of sin and that we are loved by Jesus, and his earthly agents, who devote their lives to protecting us spiritually. I never really thought of it as it’s used in the political “you guys are all dumb sheep” sense.
Yes – but not for the flock’s sake. From the shepherd’s POV, the sheep are nothing but a source of wool and mutton.
Any sheep capable of understanding that might prefer to bolt and take his/her own chances with the wolves.
It’s pretty common in the Protestant denominations that I’m aware of.
I’m also no longer a believer. But for most of the religious folks I know, believing in God is not a personal choice, any more than believing that the sky is blue is a personal choice. And, even as a non-believer, I recognize that the world can be a terrible place. Bad things happen that are utterly beyond your control. My devout relatives have the assurance that even when things go utterly to shit, God will look out for them and love them and not give them more than they can handle. Sometimes I wish I thought Someone was out there protecting me.
I doubt that Christians are going to give up thousands of years of language and imagery just because a few militant 21st century atheists think it’s silly.
[2nd century peasant] And just what, exactly, is so great about being able to think, decide or act for yourself? That way lies disagreement, war and suffering and children who leave your farm to go off to big city schools and learn how to “think”! Damn kids these days don’t care about their families anymore, they think being “independent” is so great - well who the hell cared for them and raised them up to be such great thinkers? Me, that’s who! And their father and their aunts and uncles and grandfolks - a whole **flock **of us, you could say. Now you bring these grand notions of individualism into the world and their father and their aunts and uncles and me we’re all left behind in our old age to suffer and starve because these ungrateful brats need to “find themselves”. Find what? I’ll show you where you are, mister, you’re in the field of rye, and you sow it and bring in the harvest and take care of those what took care of you, that’s where you are![/2cp]
Absolutely. Again, put yourself back in time. A lamb is success. A lamb means you have at least 2 breeding sheep. If you have two breeding sheep, you also have milk and cheese and wool and meat. In a land of shepherds, the lambs are the most important creatures living. Just like, in the land of God, humans are the most important creatures living. Yes, they (and we) need protection, but they (and we) need protection because they are riches beyond measure, not because they are worthless.
I think you’re reading too much into it.
When Jesus asks Peter to tend to his flock, he’s making a point (in my opinion) that Peter has to commit to spending every moment of the rest of his life to this task. And that it’s a humble task; he’s not asking Peter to be king over his subjects or something.
He’s making an analogy and, like any analogy, you can take it too far because it’s obviously not an exact comparison.
Except that is precisely wrong. He wasn’t revolutionary in the way you think; revolutionaries are quite useles. Good moral instructions is a reminder of what we all know deep down, not a sudden change.
In any event, you’re putting the cart before the horse. You want to understand his moral teachngs without accepting that there is something wrong. You want to understand change without considering that change might be necessary.
Christianity is not the path of “being a decent sort” or “not doing evil.” It is the path of perfection, even ascension. Christians, however flawed now, believe we are immortal, even godlike creatures. In time, we will become beings of incredible glory - so awesome that if we now were to see what we would become, we should recoil in horror or stand slack-jawed in awe. Nothing less than perfection will be accepted, al;though thankfully we take the first steps, not the last, in this life.
Which depends on the individual who would be viewing and the viewed him- or her-self. We will not be angels (they are spirit alone) but humans as they are intended to be, flesh and spirit together. Not better, perhaps, but different. No fault will be tolerated, no flaw will be present, but all pure and perfect in the image of God.
Now, on this process we come from different places. Some are naturally even-tempered, and others prone to anger. But all are in need of guidance with no exceptions. The naturally kind may be no good in themselves, but only using God’s gift to him (is your temperment your own, or your burden or gift?). The important thing is not what you are now, but what you are becoming. Men see poorly, only the flesh, but God sees the heart. Note, too, that God sends his blessings upon the sinful and the wicked - it is they who need it the most.
We are rebels against God, and the first step is throwing down our weapons. Thus, we are called to be “lambs” and “doves,” symbols of innocence, peace, and sacrifice. But, so too does God accept us and even hands back our weapons. (A good man is much more fearsome and vastly more dangerous than an evil one.) Thus, we are also called upon to be “lions” and “kings.” (Note that Jesus was capable of passion, energy, and fury in the markets.) And all of these are symbols of God.
Of course he thought for himself! We have his own words wishing, pleading, begging that the Cross would not happen to him. But he was willing to accept, through Faith, that his Works and Sacrifice would serve a larger purpose.
So too, we humans have God working above us, exhorting us to do good, Jesus praying beside us, and the Holy Spirit inside us. When we act, God helps us.
Jesus was like us men in many ways. He had doubts, He did not know entirely why he was called to do things. He was unsure of his place, no doubt felt sexual desire, and feared to die. Likewise, even though He was a divine being, He nonetheless had a human spirit and human flesh. And this has not changed. He was taken up body and soul and Divinity as one. Note that after His ressureciton, He even ate and drank with his friends and followers.
We are not destined to be His equal. We are destined to become like Him or utterly unlike Him. Yet not totally like Him. God finds joy in difference and distinction, even competition, just as he does in cooperation and similarities. His will to do good and know good is to become our own; yet what we do with it depends on the gifts He has given us, which are never quite exactly like anyone else’s gifts.
I think I understand, but are laboring under a misconception. As God, it is true - Jesus is eternal. But as man he was murdered, executed as a criminal, and reviled. He endured not because He owed us anything, or as a drama, but to purify mankind and make known to us the way of the Lord. He really died. It is as if, deciding wholly upon love of mosquitos, you became a mosuito yourself and let the others kill you, knowing the hungers and brevity of a mosquito’s life, so that those bloodsucking little vermin could one day become human. And then, you offered not merely your mosquito life but your whole human life and its sweet, sweet blood to them to feast upon and be healed.
And even that is not a sufficient allegory, because the difference between you and amosquito is finite, but the difference between you and and God is infinite.
Jesus is not God’s equal, exactly. He IS God. And He is God’s son. So too, the Holy Spirit is God, and it is also Jesus, but it is also their Emmisary carrying his spiritual blessings to us. It is not wise to think too hard about such things. I don’t understand and no human could explain it to you. We cannot understand it because the Divine is infinitely greater and inconceivable to us.
The best I can do is to offer another poor allegory. God is like the sea. It is vast, mysterious, holding unplumbed depths and strange creatures which seem to frighten us. It is dangerous. The sea invites us, fascinates us, yet we cannot easily understand it. We are not yet strong enough. And Jeus is like a vast, mighty river, such as the Amazon or Nile, which provides us with food and quenches our thirst and strengthens us while we learn to sail. Yet, because so much for the land is yet parched, there is also the mighty Holy Spirit which falls upon us and soaks and cools us like rain in hot weath. All of these are water. The water is the same (more or less). Yet it is also different. The sea is salty, the rain small and disperse, the river is always changing yet always the same.
But again, this is an allegory. It may help you, but if it does not, do not hesitate to ignore it. It is a limited man’s understanding.
Likewise, there are several ways of looking at Jesus’ sacrifice. Some would say that Jesus offered to carry the burden of sin so that mankind would not. Some would say that Jesus let us kill him so that his pure blood would wash away the sins of men and they would be no more. Some would say that God’s divine purity demanded justice frm mankind, yet in order to show mercy he offered himself as the instrument of redemption and to be punished alike. Some would say that Jesus came to show us a new path and even He himself would not shrink from it.
Christians disagree about how it works. We agree that it works, and we have a new path. Our corrupt selves will be killed, and we will be reborn “in Spirit and in Truth,” if only we ask. The asking is hard. Our animal self is not evil, but it will try and fight because we are killing it bit by bit - and it does not care in the least that it’s death is preordained and cannot be avoided, nor that it has a chance can gain eternal, real life. We are rebels but also ignorant, and much is forgiven us because of that.
Because it makes Him our Good Shepherd. I can conceive of nothing more wonderful.
That is a very cool way to think of it. I’ve never heard it put that way before.
The references to flock tend to emphasize God’s care and attention. It goes pretty well, in my mind, with the other references to fatherhood, a mother in labour, a husband caring for his wife, a hen gathering up her chicks.
If you’re offended by the references to sheep, you must be very offended by the comparisons between Israel and an adulterous wife who prostitutes herself. (That’s in Hosea).
And nope, not offended. I acknowledge my own weakness. And I do think taking it to mean God’s raising us to eat may be stretching out the metaphor a little, in a sort of, “You call your husband 'Honey.? Don’t you know where it comes from? It’s bee vomit! And the social structure of bees is appalling!” kind of way.
Thanks everyone, for sharing your opinions/experiences. As someone who has been very comfortable with his unbelief for decades, it is odd when some little thing like “flock/sheep” gets my attention for whatever reason. I appreciate folk sharing their understanding/experience of the usage and history of those terms.
Well, there’s a pretty reliable explanation for the sky being blue, whether or not anyone happens to believe it.
While the belief in “God” - or something supernatural - may not be a personal choice, surely most religious folk would agree that there is considerable input in which particular flavor of God they choose to worship in which church, no? Certainly among the many non-Catholic christian denominations, if one refuses to acknowledge the similarities between all supernatural/afterlife-based religions.
That’s at essence is what probably confuses me the most as a nonbeliever. I can get my mind around someone believing - in essence - that science and reason cannot explain everything, and that for whatever reasons they believe there is a place in their worldview for a belief in something supernatural. But the leap I cannot really understand is someone deciding that since they believe something powerful and “unknowable” is out there, that they should accept one particular detailed version of that “unknowable.”
I am well aware, however, that those of us who are unaffiliated are generally considered to be in a considerable minority. So it is certainly difficult for me to claim that everyone else is wrongheaded… 
Hey man, any time you want, my bonfire’s open to you. Neopagans are right there with ya.
I’d have to disagree. As a sheep, I imagine I’d have a much longer life and greater standard of living as part of a flock with a shepard and his dogs watching out for me, than out on my own protecting myself against the wolves.
What a timely invite, with the solstice right around the corner… 
Yes, but imagine the possibilities (commercial and otherwise) if only they were to learn how to fly!
I saw a slide show in an Art History class that included a mural from a Roman catacomb tomb featuring Apollo as The Good Shepherd. I have no clue how widespread that meme was, but, for the time, the image was considered to be a positive one with no implied insult.