# Catholics: Let's talk second class church membership **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 3, 2007, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534 "2007-06-03T01:03:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/81 "2007-06-05T14:47:20Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Yes. And it’s creepy for someone to put reproductive expectations on a couple they are not a part of. It’s _your_ marriage. Discuss it with your intended partner. I also don’t think reproductive opinions should be part of a religious conversation. It’s apples and oranges. Unless, of course, _you’re recruiting_. [/QUOTE] The Catholic Church thinks that sexual activity/marriage/reproduction has a moral component, so therefore, it becomes their business too. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/82 "2007-06-05T15:05:54Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] The Catholic Church thinks that sexual activity/marriage/reproduction has a moral component, so therefore, it becomes their business too. [/QUOTE] Well, actually I think everyone thinks there is a moral component to those things. That doesn’t make it an ouside party’s business. It’s not like it’s god you’re consulting with. It’s a plain old human. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/83 "2007-06-05T16:34:01Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Well, actually I think everyone thinks there is a moral component to those things. That doesn’t make it an ouside party’s business. It’s not like it’s god you’re consulting with. It’s a plain old human. [/QUOTE] But it isn’t. You are entering into a sacrament in the eyes of God, not just an agreement with another person. You don’t just agree to be faithful to that person through an agreement with them, but with conviction that it’s pleasing to God that you are faithful. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/84 "2007-06-05T16:43:19Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Well, actually I think everyone thinks there is a moral component to those things. That doesn’t make it an ouside party’s business. It’s not like it’s god you’re consulting with. It’s a plain old human. [/QUOTE] It’s a plain old human whose boss is God, though, and who is the authorized representative of the organization that speaks for God on earth. So, since it’s God’s business, it’s the church’s business. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/85 "2007-06-05T16:45:33Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Yes. And it’s creepy for someone to put reproductive expectations on a couple they are not a part of. It’s your marriage. Discuss it with your intended partner. I also don’t think reproductive opinions should be part of a religious conversation. It’s apples and oranges. Unless, of course, you’re recruiting. [/QUOTE] While I’m not sure if it’s a RCC view, a general Christian concept is that a follower of Jesus gives his life to Him. In such a union both people have also given their lives to Christ, they no longer own their own life, as their own life has died. As such there may be some reproductive expectation - IMHO this is between God and the couple, but historically the RCC like to impose itself in there too. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/86 "2007-06-05T18:07:02Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] It’s a plain old human whose boss is God, though, and who is the authorized representative of the organization that speaks for God on earth. So, since it’s God’s business, it’s the church’s business. [/QUOTE] You forgot the “allegedly” before “speaks for God.” And as far as “a plain old human whose boss is God” is concerned, how does that distinguish him from anyone else, if God is real? Is God not your boss and mine as well? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/87 "2007-06-05T18:44:55Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] You forgot the “allegedly” before “speaks for God.” [/QUOTE] Well, but for both the priest and the couple engaging in premarital counseling before they get married in a Catholic ceremony, it’s not “alledgedly”…they’re all in agreement that the Catholic Church is righ, and that the Catholic Church does speak for God in that regard. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/88 "2007-06-05T19:31:16Z")
For the record, this explanation isn’t making me feel less creeped out. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/89 "2007-06-05T19:56:36Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] Well, but for both the priest and the couple engaging in premarital counseling before they get married in a Catholic ceremony, it’s not “alledgedly”…they’re all in agreement that the Catholic Church is righ, and that the Catholic Church does speak for God in that regard. [/QUOTE] OK, you should have said “in the eyes of all parties involved” rather than “allegedly.” I’m fine with that. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/90 "2007-06-05T20:07:58Z")
[QUOTE=RTFirefly] OK, you should have said “in the eyes of all parties involved” rather than “allegedly.” I’m fine with that. [/QUOTE] I’m perfectly content saying what I said. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2007, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/91 "2007-06-05T23:29:06Z")
anyone else has any thoughts about the OP? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/92 "2007-06-06T11:51:13Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] anyone else has any thoughts about the OP? [/QUOTE] As I understand it the RCC considers it to be The spokesman for God through the succession of Peter when Jesus was quoted as saying to Peter ( whose name was changed from Simon) meant rock. On this rock I build my Church and the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it etc. What you bind on earth etc. So when the Pope speaks excathedra he is speaking for God. The apostles Creed was to be the beliefs Christians should follow. Of course there are differences of opinions that is why so many broke away from the RCC. The church only makes rules for it’s members not other Christians. Before Vatican 2 Catholics couldn’t eat meat on Fridays but they did not expect other denominations to follow, so it was a sin only for RCC members. Monavis ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/93 "2007-06-06T12:09:13Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] anyone else has any thoughts about the OP? [/QUOTE] I’d say to look at it as 3rd class, the 2nd class would be the normal congregation and first class the ones who let the rest know what God has said. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/94 "2007-06-06T12:32:05Z")
[QUOTE=Sapo] anyone else has any thoughts about the OP? [/QUOTE] Sure, but I’m not Catholic. And technically, these thoughts come from further posts which suggested that you personally put a whole lot of emphasis on the whole Communion and Eucharist thing. On the one hand, I think you overemphasize the importance of taking Communion to being part of the Body of Christ. I want to tell you that it’s just a symbol. (Well, a sacrament, too, but . . . ) On the other hand, symbols are important to people. I know a woman who attended a United Methodist Church where Communion is served at an Open Table and all who wish to recieve are welcome (whether you are a member of this church, any church or no church) for several years and then swithed to a local Baptist Church which made her children happier. Now that said children are graduating from high school, Mom is planning to go church-hunting again. The number one reason is because the Baptist church won’t let her take Communion unless she is baptized as an adult. She refuses. It goes against what she has believed all her life about infant Baptism. But starting her children on a good spiritual foundation was important to her, and she will encourage her son to stick with the Baptist Church as long as it makes him happy. (He has been baptized twice, now, once as an infant, and once as an adult). And so, on the one hand, I think that I value parts of the service other than Communion a lot more than Communion. Music is my major decider at this point. But if I found myself at a church that otherwise seemed perfect but did not serve Communion at an Open Table, I’m not sure whether I’d wish to attend it–whether I could easily meet their qualifications or not. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/95 "2007-06-06T12:42:02Z")
[QUOTE=Bricker] Don’t know why you think it’s creepy, and I wouldn’t phrase it precisely as you have, but yes, couples that are not open to the possibility of procreation in marriage cannot validly enter into the sacrament of marriage. [/QUOTE] Note that the phrasing is “open to.” As I understand it, the likely sterility or near-sterility of one party, the fact the woman has passed menopause, etc., are not bars to sacramental marriage in Catholicism – like Sarah in Genesis, they have only to be open to the idea that God may miraculously grant them a child – not necessarily have much of a probability of conceiving one. Officially, Catholicism considers that every act of marital sex should be potentially procreative. In practice, that seems to be diluted substanially, the degree varying from place to place and on whom you ask. ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/96 "2007-06-06T13:43:23Z")
I’m still not comprehending _Kalhoun_’s phobia. People who believe sometimes (horrors!) actually do things which reflect their beliefs! _GASP_ Those wild-eyed crazed fanatics! ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/97 "2007-06-06T13:51:19Z")
[QUOTE=Eureka] Sure, but I’m not Catholic. And technically, these thoughts come from further posts which suggested that you personally put a whole lot of emphasis on the whole Communion and Eucharist thing. On the one hand, I think you overemphasize the importance of taking Communion to being part of the Body of Christ. I want to tell you that it’s just a symbol. (Well, a sacrament, too, but . . . ) [/QUOTE] In the Catholic Church, it is not a symbol. Its being a sacrament is not just a parenthetical aside. It’s a miracle. A miracle that happens at every Mass and we get to be there to take part in it. That’s huge. Now, it happens at every Mass so I tend to choose the church based on the priest(s) and the music as well, but don’t discount the amazingness of the Eucharist. And as far as being baptized twice, sounds impossible to me. The second one sounds like a symbol rather than a sacrament. ---
**Author:** ![Sapo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ec9cab/32.png) [@Sapo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sapo)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/98 "2007-06-06T14:05:48Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] I’d say to look at it as 3rd class, the 2nd class would be the normal congregation and first class the ones who let the rest know what God has said. [/QUOTE] 2nd Class was, indeed, being very generous. It is more of a consolation prize. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/99 "2007-06-06T14:15:01Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] I’m perfectly content saying what I said. [/QUOTE] OK, if that’s what you say, then I say you’re wrong. Nobody in the RCC speaks for God. That appalling moral wreck of a church speaks for nobody but itself and its own repressive desires. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534/100 "2007-06-06T14:20:52Z")
[QUOTE=gigi] In the Catholic Church, it is not a symbol. Its being a sacrament is not just a parenthetical aside. It’s a miracle. A miracle that happens at every Mass and we get to be there to take part in it. That’s huge. Now, it happens at every Mass so I tend to choose the church based on the priest(s) and the music as well, but don’t discount the amazingness of the Eucharist. And as far as being baptized twice, sounds impossible to me. The second one sounds like a symbol rather than a sacrament. [/QUOTE] I don’t get this “miracle” bit. What miracle? If this is the whole Transubstantiation thing-y then I don’t get that either. And really, it doesn’t matter. I have objections both theological and practical to the Catholic Church. I’m not saying it’s evil or horrible or anything, but it isn’t what I’m comfortable with either. Being baptized twice is not impossible. I don’t think it’s common, though. Whether it’s a symbol or a sacrament is hard for me to judge. In my understanding, if you were baptized in accordance with the Methodist Church, the Catholic Church or most other mainstream churches–EXCEPT the Baptist Church–it will be accepted as a valid baptism should you someday wish to change churches. But the Baptist church has it’s idiosyncracies about Baptism, so if you wish to join a Baptist church and you were previously baptized into another church, you will need to be baptized again. (And vice versa). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-lets-talk-second-class-church-membership/406534.md?page=6)