# Catholics not Christian? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2001, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863 "2001-04-13T17:39:47Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![lestrange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/aca169/32.png) [@lestrange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lestrange)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/21 "2001-04-14T02:41:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by LateComer \* > \*\* > > 1. Purgatory > > Went away with Vatican II, but, again, I’m not sure why this is “anti-Christian.” > > \*\* Are you sure this went away with Vatican II? Vetran of Catholic schools and post Vatican II baby that I am, I heard all about Purgatory. In fact, I distinctly remember an All Souls Day Mass when I was in college where the sermon was about Purgatory. And the [Catholic Encyclopedia article on the subject](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12575a.htm) doesn’t mention that it’s out, that I read. I think the argument against it is that it isn’t explicitly mentioned in the Bible, and Heaven and Hell are. Add to that fact that number 3 (indulgences) were largely presented as “Get Out of Jail Free” cards for use when you found yourself there (or for relatives you thought might be there already)–so buy plenty! The more you hammered away at the suffering of Purgatory, the more important it became to have a few indulgences on hand. And indulgences are still a big issue for lots of Protestants, as evidenced by their appearance on this list. Even folks who know the sale of indulgences ceased ages ago can get bent out of shape when they realize that they’re still actually available. Indulgences seem to be the symbol of everything Protestants think is wrong with the Catholic Church’s position on salvation and justification, the whole argument distilled down to one word so potent it can make otherwise reasonable people foam at the mouth. In fact, I’d be willing to bet that Purgatory owes it’s presence on this list almost entirely to its involvement with indulgences. (for the curious, no, you can’t get them for cash anymore–you mostly get them by performing specific acts of penitence. For more information than you ever wanted on the subject, see [this site](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07783a.htm). Also do read jmullaney’s very informative links). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/22 "2001-04-14T02:48:21Z")
I love reading the articles Jack Chick writes about Catholicism. I especially like how he says that every Catholic is taught from birth to swear allegiance to the Vatican above the US, and that the Pope is our true leader, not the president. My estimation is that this guy has never entered a Catholic institution his entire life, and that the extent of his experience with Catholicism is old reruns of The Flying Nun. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/23 "2001-04-14T02:59:02Z")
> [@](#): > > Does anyone know where this “whore of Babylon” notion originated? Surely not with the magisterial Reformers like Luther, who would be horrified by the whole bible prophecy cottage industry that has grown over the last couple of centuries. Actually, this stuff goes way back with Protestants. According to Mark Edwards, Jr., a Martin Luther scholar, on [this _Frontline_ web page](http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/apocalypse/explanation/martinluther.html): > [@](#): > > When Martin Luther first translated and published the New Testament, he thought that Revelation should not have the same status or authority as the gospels or the letters of Paul or Peter. And so he put it at the end, but he didn’t number it. He didn’t put a “saint” in front of [John’s] name. He thought it was an edifying book, but not of the same status. But what’s interesting, even though he felt that way, it’s the one book that he illustrated, where he put woodcuts, because Revelation allowed him to make one of his central points, which was that the papacy was the Antichrist, and the end of the world was coming. And so there you see the only woodcuts in the New Testament. You see the whore of Babylon wearing a papal crown. You see the seven-headed beast wearing a papal crown. The message was clear. You didn’t have to read (as most people didn’t). You got the message. The papacy, the papal office–not the individual popes but the papal Church–was where Satan was working to undermine Christendom. And the fact that Satan was there meant the world was coming to an end soon. … You can read Luther’s _Table Talk_ [here](http://www.reformed.org/documents/Table_talk/table_talk.html), including such selections as this: > [@](#): > > Antichrist is the pope and the Turk together; a beast full of life must have a body and soul; the spirit or soul of antichrist is the pope, his flesh or body the Turk. The latter wastes and assails and persecutes God’s church corporally; the former spiritually and corporally too, with hanging, burning, murdering, etc. But, as in the apostle’s time, the church had the victory over the Jews and Romans, so now will she keep the field firm and solid against the hypocrisy and idolatry of the pope, and the tyranny and devastations of the Turk and her other enemies. – No. [CCCCXXVI](http://www.reformed.org/documents/Table_talk/table_talk_4.html#Heading21). > [@](#): > > And the Catholic Encyclopedia article on the subject [Purgatory] doesn’t mention that it’s out, that I read. Be aware that the [_Catholic Encyclopedia_](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen) was published in 1917. ---
**Author:** ![Amedeus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9de0a6/32.png) [@Amedeus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amedeus)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/24 "2001-04-14T02:59:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SuaSponte \* > Even if all of these were true (and kudi to **Latecomer** for pointing out the errors), how would these make Catholicism non- or anti-Christian. Uh, What is a Kudi? I looked it up, but [dictionary.com](http://dictionary.com) doesn’t recognize it. Context suggests thanks of sort. that would be my WAG Sorry for the hijack, sounds neat, just wanted to know if it is another language or not. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/25 "2001-04-14T03:02:25Z")
**lestrange** , you are correct that Purgatory has not been removed from Catholic thought. (We _have_ stopped talking about Limbo, however.) OTOH, the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia is not accurate for discovering what was promulgated by Vatican II: the on-line Catholic Encyclopedia is a transcription of the monographic encyclopedia written between 1907 and 1919. (Look up John XXIII some time.) Purgatory _is_ a sore point between Catholics and (most) Protestants for a whole series of reasons. The first has to do with our dispute over the canon of Scripture. The notion of Purgatory arose from a passage in II Macabees. After one of their battles, Judas M discovered that the slain among his men were all carrying small idols as good luck charms. He has sacrifices offered for them in reparation for their sin and in the hope of the Resurrection. When Luther was re-examining the Deutero-canonical books with an eye to casting them out of his canon, that passage was a clear red flag that the work was not inspired (on top of the other arguments he had gathered against it). Of course, the Catholics who had been using that book for nearly 1500 years as Scripture, and as the basis for the developing notion of Purgatory, disagreed. **Guinastasia** , I believe that Chick might have actually been raised as a Catholic for a few years as a child. It was certainly pre-Vatican II and he obviously didn’t learn squat–but then he is one of the believers in the Nine Commandments and he is not bothered by the inaccuracy of his rants. (I may be confusing him with one of his assistants. It is not as though I relish the thought of reading his biography.) ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/26 "2001-04-14T03:07:02Z")
> [@](#): > > What is a Kudi? Most likely a jocular reference to multiple kudoses, kuda, kudoi, whatever. (“Kudos” is singluar without a plural.) ---
**Author:** ![lestrange](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/aca169/32.png) [@lestrange](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lestrange)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/27 "2001-04-14T03:11:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\* > > OTOH, the link to the Catholic Encyclopedia is not accurate for discovering what was promulgated by Vatican II: the on-line Catholic Encyclopedia is a transcription of the monographic encyclopedia written between 1907 and 1919. (Look up John XXIII some time.) Ah, I didn’t realize that. Thanks (to you and MEBuckner)for the heads up. ---
**Author:** ![zoony](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e99b99/32.png) [@zoony](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoony)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 4:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/28 "2001-04-14T04:23:38Z")
_ **My** _ question would be “why would you care?” As every Catholic knows, everybody else is wrong and going to hell (or purgatory) anyway… As every non-Catholic knows, those damn Catholics’ve been screwing things up for two thousand freaking years. Was born RC, got out as quick as I could (as George Carlin points out, ‘they were after my soul’). Was confirmed in this when an acquaintance of mine pointed out (in all seriousness, because Catholics have a hard time being anything but) at a large get-together that she and I were the only persons present going to heaven because we were the only baptized Catholics… But it sure as hell ain’t like Catholics have a monopoly on humorlessness when it comes to faith. That’s probably the biggest reason I respect the Jews - they don’t _want_ any of you people joining up… z ---
**Author:** ![Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9d8465/32.png) [@Brian\_Bunnyhurt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brian_Bunnyhurt)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/29 "2001-04-14T04:40:15Z")
According to Martin Larson in _The Story of Christian Origins_ the whore of Babylon was a derisive phrase originating with Babylonian marriage practices which repulsed many rural people. Apparently, a virgin would go to a Aphrodite-type temple before her wedding and have sex with the first man who picked her (certain temples in pagan times were well organized brothels dedicated to gods of love). The un-virgin would then be suitable for marriage. It was taboo to marry a virgin in Babylon, according to Larson, who credits them with keeping a vestigial pre-ancient tradition alive that did not consider a woman to be the property of a man, but rather considered women to be “communal assets.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/30 "2001-04-14T04:47:07Z")
> [@](#): > > an acquaintance of mine pointed out (in all seriousness, because Catholics have a hard time being anything but) at a large get-together that she and I were the only persons present going to heaven because we were the only baptized Catholics… Who says the RCC doesn’t have a sense of humor? Fr. Feeney declared that only Catholics were going to heaven and the Church excommunicated him. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Traveler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/82dd89/32.png) [@World\_Traveler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Traveler)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/31 "2001-04-14T14:25:16Z")
Here is a quote to ponder: “For Christianity, by identifying truth with faith, must teach - and, properly understood, does teach - that any interference with the truth is immoral. A Christian with faith has nothing to fear from the facts; a Christian historian who draws the line limiting the field of enquiry at any point whatsoever, is admitting the limits of his faith. And of course he is also destroying the nature of his religion, which is a progressive revelation of truth. So the Christian, according to my understanding, should not be inhibited in the smallest degree from following the line of truth; indeed, he is positively bound to follow it. He should be, in fact, freer than the non-Christian, who is precommitted by his own rejection.” Paul Johnson “A History of Christianity” BTW, He is Catholic. I guess I should post this on the various “evolution” debate threads too. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/32 "2001-04-14T16:11:31Z")
From a non-believer’s perspective, the main difference is that you get a better workout at a Catholic service. The Protestant services I’ve been to, you sit, maybe stand for a couple of passage readings, sit again and leave. But the Catholics, man! Sit, kneel, stand, kneel, sit, stand. They ought to have Richard Simmons conducting the services. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/33 "2001-04-14T16:27:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by manhattan \* > \*\*From a non-believer’s perspective, the main difference is that you get a better workout at a Catholic service. > > The Protestant services I’ve been to, you sit, maybe stand for a couple of passage readings, sit again and leave. > > But the Catholics, man! Sit, kneel, stand, kneel, sit, stand. They ought to have Richard Simmons conducting the services. \*\* Aww bitch bitch bitch…ever been to an Easter Vigil mass (usually 10pm or so Saturday before Easter)? Now THAT’s some serious action (and l-o-n-g) ---
**Author:** ![flodnak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/838e76/32.png) [@flodnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flodnak)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/34 "2001-04-14T16:39:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*Aww bitch bitch bitch…ever been to an Easter Vigil mass (usually 10pm or so Saturday before Easter)? Now THAT’s some serious action (and l-o-n-g) \*\* And then there’s Palm Sunday. Remember to wear your comfy shoes, because you’re going to have to stand there while three bleeping CHAPTERS of the Gospel of Mumble are read. The only good part is that everybody gets to yell cool things like _“Crucify Him! Crucify Him!”_ (and you get to see who drew the short straw and has to read Judas’ lines this year). You can also try whacking your sister with your palm branch, but this is usually not worth the risk. Not only does it make Mom nuts, but the nuns will probably see you and will make sure your teacher knows what you did, so you get to start Monday morning by writing _I must not whack my sister upside the head in church_ 500 times, and handwriting counts. Ahh, childhood memories. 😃 And, uh, **zoony**? Catholics don’t believe everybody else is going to Hell. It’s a bit tricky, but there’s a difference between believing someone else is a bit shaky on the details and believing they’re up for eternal damnation. ---
**Author:** ![BiblioCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ed8c4c/32.png) [@BiblioCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BiblioCat)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/35 "2001-04-14T16:40:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*Padeye said: > …now Evangelical Lutheran (or as my R.C. friends call it, “watered down Catholocism”) \*\*My husband says the same thing. He sometimes says Lutheranism is “Catholic Lite.” 😉 I’ve been an ELCA Lutheran all my life, and he’s Catholic. Parochial school, the whole nine yards. We were married in my Lutheran chiurch, and he comes to church with me, but has never formally joined the Lutheran church. He hasn’t been to confession (or even inside a Catholic church) in at least 8 or 9 years (other than for weddings), but still adheres to some of those Catholic-school ideals. He had a fit yesterday, because I let the kids have hambugers from McD’s for lunch. I just know that little Catholic voice inside his head was saying, “Your wife and kids are going to Hell for eating meat on Good Friday.” > [@](#): > > **beagledave said: > Theologically and liturgically, I would suspect that there are far more differences between the ELCA and Southern Baptists…then there are between the ELCA and Roman Catholics** I’d have to agree with that. The Lutheran church (at least the ELCA, I don’t know about the Missouri and Wisconsin synods) has been moving back a little towards the Catholics a little bit at a time. We used to do communion once a month; now we have it every week. When hubby and I started dating and he came to church with me, he kept saying, “This is just like we have! Catholics do this, too! This church is a lot like the Catholic church!” He was amazed at how close the two were. ---
**Author:** ![Lsura](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7993a0/32.png) [@Lsura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lsura)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/36 "2001-04-14T17:10:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > \*\*Aww bitch bitch bitch…ever been to an Easter Vigil mass (usually 10pm or so Saturday before Easter)? Now THAT’s some serious action (and l-o-n-g) \*\* 2.5 hours, approximately. Eight readings or so, plus rites of initiation for those joining the Church. But there’s the new fire and playing with candle wax in church. Always a plus. And it’s a beautiful service, with a lot of meaning for me. But I get to go take a nap now, so that I can handle the 2.5 hour service this evening. And, yes, I have comfortable shoes and clothes to wear, though not jeans and sneakers like I usually wear to Mass. To the OP…if you want a _ahem_ hearty debate that could easily become mean spirited, may I suggest the message boards over at[leftbehind.com](http://www.leftbehind.com). Some days I laugh and laugh and laugh at what some believe about the Catholic church. Though Jack Chick is always good for a laugh too. ---
**Author:** ![delphica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e9a140/32.png) [@delphica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/delphica)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/37 "2001-04-14T17:20:18Z")
I think Catholics themselves (or some Catholics, some times, to make this even more general) perpetuate this notion that Catholics aren’t Christian because of simple word choice. Many Catholics I know wouldn’t identify themselves as “Christian,” if asked, the response is usually “Catholic.” I’m trying to think of a case where I would identify myself as a Christian – in my mental vocabulary, this would be like answering the question “ok, so that’s a large pizza with pepporoni, for delivery, where do you live?” with “The United States.” By saying that I’m Catholic, I’m assuming the Christian part is understood. With the pizza place around the corner, I’m assuming he wants information about my street address, not my citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/38 "2001-04-14T17:42:44Z")
World Traveler: > [@](#): > > BTW, He is Catholic. I guess I should post this on the various “evolution” debate threads too. You are aware that the official Catholoc stance is that evolution is “more than a theory”? This isn’t whole-hearted acceptance, no, but the Church has always reacted slowly to the world–not a bad policy overall. The church is certainly very receptive to science and in fact supports many many scientists. In some ways, a Jesuit astronomer is the the envy of his colleges–he dosen’t have to scramble for grants every year and his work is not nearly as subject to pressure passing fashions faahions or whims. The celebacy part is the downside. So I am afraid that the hard-line creationists would tell you to go stuff your quote since it is by a Catholic, and the Catholics would br like “well, duh.” ---
**Author:** ![JDM](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/90db22/32.png) [@JDM](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JDM)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/39 "2001-04-14T21:15:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by delphica \* > \*\* > I think Catholics themselves (or some Catholics, some times, to make this even more general) perpetuate this notion that Catholics aren’t Christian because of simple word choice. Many Catholics I know wouldn’t identify themselves as “Christian,” if asked, the response is usually “Catholic.” > \*\* OTOH over here in the good old Russian Federation, members of the Russian Orthodox Church identify others as Catholic, Protestant, etc., but call themselves (and only themselves) Christian. And ya wanna talk about exercise- these folks have services that go on for DAYS- and you stand through the whole thing. They also had a big ritual a year or so ago in which they ritually blessed Russia’s nuclear arsenal. And they recently canonized Nicholas II and family for their “suffering” (but I don’t think they canonized the servants that were killed with them, and thus “suffered” equally). The best thing about that was that the reason for the canonization was a compromise- a very large minority (45%) of the priests, etc. in the church wanted Nicky canonized because he died “fighting the Jews.” They have also found very clever uses of the post-communist law which bans “slander” of religion. JDM ---
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2001, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863/40 "2001-04-14T21:17:51Z")
> [@](#): > > Many Catholics I know wouldn’t identify themselves as “Christian,” if asked, the response is usually “Catholic.” This might be part of it, but most of the Episcopalians, Lutherans,Baptists, etc. that I know identify themselves by denomination, not as Christians,and those denominations aren’t said not to be Christian. In fact, most of the people I know who answer “Christian” belong to what I guess you could call an unaffiliated church - there really isn’t a level between the name of the specific congregation and “Christian”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-not-christian/61863.md?page=3)