Hey, watch what you say about Nicky and co! And anyhoo, they’re only martyrs, not quite saints yet.
His sister in law, Alix’s sister, btw, was canonized. (She married an uncle of Nicky’s).
Anyhoo, I had meat yesterday-a bowl of chicken soup. I’m sick.
Whoa, you’re not kidding about the Left Behind boards. There are some people who really need to pull the rods out of their asses. (Not ALL, just some…scary.)
FTR, I attended a Catholic high school and was taught the principles of evolution in biology class by a teacher who was a priest. Natural selection, the whole bit. I believe the church has no problems with evolutionary science whatsoever.
Ah HA! More proof that we’re not really Christian.
So why do catholics bow down to the pope and kiss his ring as if he were Godly, he is only a man. Why can he make rules like: do not eat meat any friday and then one year it can change. Wasn’t that the case at one time? Why do catholics call their teachers father? Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Is there a reason catholics can’t pray to God directly? Isn’t that what he want?! 1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
ok, what about the “say 3 hail marys and your forgiven” when you confess to a priest?
Went away with Vatican II, but, again, I’m not sure why this is “anti-Christian.”
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un-christian because it was made up and added to christianity.
God gives his grace directly to the receiver, he doesn’t put it in a bowl and hand it to you.
You are saved through Jesus, not by ritual.
Nowhere in the New Testament is there a record of Roman Catholicism or any of the numerous Protestant denominations. How did the variety of present-day “churches” come into existence? The church always has been made up of human individuals, susceptible to human error. Paul warned the church at Corinth (1Cor. 1:10-13) not to follow men - not even good men - instead of Christ. In that very passage he asks, “Is Christ divided?” Implied in his answer, “No!” Division comes from humans and their views, and especially so when we look to men rather than to the Bible for our authority.
No one bows to the pope “as if he was Godly.” The etiquette surrounding the pope in certain circumstances is based on Medieval and Renaissance protocol. One bows to The British Queen, but no one calls her “Godly.” A lot of that formality has been dropped in the last 40 years, but the etiquette surrounding significant public figures is conservative by nature and tends to change slowly. I am old enough to remember when bishops might extend their ring to be kissed, but all the bishops I have met personally simply shook hands.
Catholics do pray directly to God. In addition, Catholics (as do Protestants) ask other people to pray for them, as well. If you do not belive in prayer of intervention, you are a hypocrite if you ever ask your pastor or congregation to pray for you. Catholics simply refrain from limiting the people who may pray for them to those who are still alive.
It is not “say three Hail Marys and you are forgiven” on the one hand and that would not be an indulgence on the other.
Forgiveness is given by God as soon as one is truly sorry for having sinned. The Sacrament of Reconciliation/Penence/Confession is the manner in which we are reconciled to the Church (The Body of Christ according to Paul) for having allowed sin to come between us and God. One does not “earn” forgiveness through prayers.
Indulgences are relief from the punishment earned by sin. For a rough analogy: break your mother’s lamp playing ball in the house, she can forgive you, but the lamp is still broken. The restitution for that act can be in the form of other charitable works. The Indulgences sold during the middle ages were a form of simony that violated church Law, but were tolerated, (justifiably) angering Luther.
Many Protestant denominations disagree with Catholicism regarding these theological points, but that does not, of itself, make Catholicism non-Christian; it simply gives Protestants something to protest.
Things like Holy Water are called Sacramentals. They are reminders of the power of God and do not (in the eyes of the RCC) carry or confer power, themselves. This is not to say that no individual Catholics have ever used them superstitiously, but that use is not part of RCC teaching.
We say the same thing. What’s your problem?
So, you’re saying that when the man, Luther, threw out the Deutero-Canonical books of the Bible, all the people who followed him into Protestantism were in error?
(No. I do not believe that the issue of the Apocrypha/Deutero-Canonical works can or should be so glibly dismissed, but I’m afraid that after the rest of JersyDiamond’s misunderstandings and pronouncements, I couldn’t keep that one back.)
The British monarch still officially holds the title “Defender of the Faith”, which ironically enough, was bestowed upon Henry VIII by the Pope in recognition of Henry’s opposition to Martin Luther’s teachings.
Tom,
You forgot to mention that the Roman Catholics consider the Host to be a Sacramental and do not worship it like an idol but that very many Fundamentalist types apparently elevate the Holy Bible itself to the level of an idol.
Oh, heck. They appear to elevate it to a god.
No, the Eucharist is in fact worshipped as God himself. In fact, I was at a Eucharistic shrine in Boston just last month (St. Clement’s, near Landsdowne Street), where the Host in its container was adored 24-7. Adoration (not just veneration, but adoration) of the Eucharist has become increasingly popular in recent years, and John Paul II himself has said that adoration of the Host leads to peace on Earth.
UnuMondo
No one is born knowing the truth. As such, a person needs to seek out the truth. Truth is as such disseminated by teachers.
The matter of discerning which teachers are teachers of the truth and which ones are teachers of falsehood is a difficult one.
One might turn to the writings of teachers already dead, but if so one must understand them without the possibility of further explanation. One who is by nature ignorant of the truth may not be able to of his own power.
Neither the position of the Catholics nor that of the followers of Luther are without the potential for error.
Catholics believe Jesus taught the apostles, who taught their own disciples, and thus carried down a living tradition of the truth through the established heirarchy. History shows, however, that to some extent the Papacy has had periods where divine providence has not always resulted in the best Popes. Yet the Church recovers from such failings and moves on. It is a pilgrim church.
Protestants believe Jesus taught the apostles, and the apostles (and St. Paul) wrote the books of the New Testament. They believe that by studying this document, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, all truth may be laid bare. The flaw with such an idea is were the Holy Spirit already had, there would be no need for the scriptures at all as surely the Spirit does not need them.
Those who know the truth need no other teacher than the Holy Spirit. But we must must be on our guard, not only against false teachers, but abandoning a true teacher before we have learned everything, making ourselves into spiritual abortions. If Jesus felt man needed no teachers he would not have taught himself, and instructed his followers to teach others.
While you may doubt the veracity of the Catholic Church, and surely in its imperfect body there are false teachers, you can not doubt the wisdom that those who are imperfect should be under the instruction of a superior.
IIRC there is evidence for Purgatory in Maccabees.
The belief in Purgatory goes hand in hand with sanctifying grace, which a soul can be deprived of through mortal sin according to the Catholic teaching.
Since Protestants following Luther do not believe one needs to leave a life of mortal sin in order to have sanctifying grace for salvation, they have no need in their theology for a safe haven for those with only venial sins.
Yet ritual, an an outward sign, can demonstrate to others what the truth is that is held by its followers. Why Protestants go to church, or even have churches is beyond me if they so disagree with this idea.
Ah, but Paul taught this, not Christ, so we shouldn’t listen to him! 
But then you are merely your own authority, prone to your own weak understanding. To this day I do not understand why so many Protestants have Bible school. And I can not believe that they all come to the same understanding, quite apart from their indoctrination, merely by the Holy Spirit – which often happens to be the exact same understanding as Luther had though his ideas never occured to anyone in Christiandom for a thousand years. And then they burst forth from years of Bible school and rant that no one should have any teachers!
Fortunately, Jesus presented a solution to this whole dilemma. Keep his commandments, which are clear imperatives, and the Spirit of Truth will be sent to you. You shall know the truth, and the truth shall set you free.
(BTW, UnuMondo – perpetual adoration is a good thing. We might wonder on the other hand why Protestant churches keep their doors locked most hours of the day, which violates the whole spirit of Jesus’s teachings. The perpetual adoration an attempt to keep the doors open and I would hope one day no Catholic Church ever locks its doors.)
Oy, easter vigil. I went to that this year. Mostly because my brother’s fiancee was getting confirmed, baptized, and her first communion all in one shot (she’s a former JW). Sit, stand, sit, stand, kneel…It really is a nice mass. I enjoyed the new fire ceremony, and the procession of people with lit candles was neat.
I’m just glad most of the time mass is an hour or less.
The attack on ImNotMad was pretty rough. The question was “Why do some christian fundamentalists think of Catholics as somehow not christian?” Weather they (the fundamentalists) are right or wrong in their assertions, he does offer reasons as to why the thought prevails.
Now having said that let me ask this:
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160_07.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160_06.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160_15.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160_16.asp
http://www.chick.com/reading/books/160/160_17.asp
Rather than just dismiss Chick as a nut what is his flaw(s) in just these two assertions? jmullaney danced around a few (esp. Why do catholics call their teachers father?) Are the quotes from the Catechism taken out of context? Just what is incorrect? Do you think Chick’s followers are Christians?
Let me posit this. There are reasons why Martin Luther and other guys left the RCC and form other organization, the reasons were fundamental and strongly held beliefs of the RCC. And those reasons (items 3, 4, 6 and others not mentioned), some of which still exist today, and the vestiges thereof are the cause for the belief that Catholics are not Christians.
There are undeniable theological differences between the RCC and other Christian denominations. That and the fact that the RCC condones such trickery as stigmata and silently encourages the silly practice of flocking to see the virgin Mary’s image on everything from clouds to the urine pattern on bathroom floors all attribute to the belief that Catholics are not Christians.
I bet some do think she is, you never know. She probably thinks she is too.
So what is it that catholics do, ask mary to ask God to forgive them? That doesn’t make much sense. Why not just say God, and pray to him? She can’t help you, only God can. If people pray for me, it’s because they want to, or maybe they think it would help if they pray. It’s not because I need them to. I know that all I need to do is pray to God myself.
You get forgiven by asking God for forgiveness, not by telling your priest. Who said anything about earning?
Nowhere in the Bible does it say God will only forgive you if you ask AND do something nice. All you need to do is be sincere and ask him for forgiveness.
Saying you believe in Christ will make people believe your a christian. So? I’m not sure if Protestants believe your Christian or not, but if they don’t, it’s probably because catholics added some of their own rules to Christianity and more books to the Bible, where as Protestants ( I think )follow what was original. Any Protestants, please correct me.
We say the same thing. What’s your problem?
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I don’t have a problem. It seems as though catholics need some sort of ritual to go along with the things they believe.
Are they the books of the catholic bible? If so, they are historical books, not spiritual.
Oh please, you can do better than that. How exactly does the Vatican “encourage” visits to urine patterns or Marian images in clouds?
Only a few Marian apparitions have been officially sanctioned by the
Vatican as “worthy of pious belief”. Mainly, Guadalupe, Fatima and Lourdes…and then only many years after the fact…and even then, they certainly don’t rise to the level of dogmatic or doctrinal teaching.
Even for the widely publicized Medjugorje “Marian apparitions”, the Vatican and even the local Bishop took a somewhat skeptical or cautious approach.
http://www.sffaith.com/ed/articles/1998/1198cz.htm
Let’s see now…infallibility? Try here http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/faq-cc.html#q7
Development of the papacy? Try here http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/faq-cc.html#q6
Role of Mary and “adoration”? Try here http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/faq-cc.html#q14
Calling priests “Father”? Try here http://www.columbia.edu/cu/augustine/a/faq-cc.html#q25
Catholic Apologetics…what joy …
Jersey Diamond said…
Not all prayer is about forgiveness…geez ever read the SDMB…ever see posters asking for the prayers and thoughts from other posters? As Tom already explained (you DID read that right?) the RCC considers the “church” (in a people sense) to include those who have gone before us…including Mary, the saints and our friends.
You seem to be misunderstanding the difference between “forgiveness” and “healing”. If I hurt my wife by word or deed, it is important to ask for her forgiveness, but is is also important to work on the dynamics of the relationship (at least MY part of that) that contributed to the pain. From the church’s point of view, indulgences and the Sacrament of Reconcilliation are about just that, healing or rebuilding.
No shit…don’t we all!
It’s nice that my wife BELIEVES that I love her , it’s also nice for me to “ritualize” that emotion through deed…whether it’s setting aside a specific time to be with her…remembering our anniversary…sending her a supportive email at work…these are ways that we ritualize things in our lives.
No. They are part of the spiritual, God-given Bible. Obviously, there is disagreement on this point. However, you continue to claim that Catholics have “added” things. My contention is that most of the traditions and scriptures that the Protestants have rejected because they chose to change the theology have been a part of the Christian church since the beginning. There are honest disagreements among Christians as to the validity, age, and origin of the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism. However, with not much effort, I can demonstrate that Luther (and current Evangelical churches) are much closer to Catholic teachings than those churches that followed from Calvin–and that some of the American movements of the late 19th century are even further removed from any of the other groups–yet we don’t see people wandering around claiming that Lutherans/Baptists/Methodists/Pentecostals/whoever “are not Christian.” The claim that Catholicism is not Christian is simply a way to rationalize some Christians’ hatred for other Christians, and that is expressly against the will of God.
Everyone needs ritual to express what they believe. Catholicism recognizes that openly and has nurtured a liturgy that incorporates drama as part of the celebration. Some Protestant groups have misconstrued that dramatic presentation and have actually attempted to shun ritual. Unfortunately, that attempt has failed. The difference is that the Catholic ritual is conscious and the rituals of those Protestant groups that shun ritual is unconscious (or denied). Does your congregation sing at a service? Together? That is ritual. Do they have readings and preaching at about the same point in each service? That is ritual. Catholics simply are not inhibited about acknowledging their humanity, and so we embrace the ritual to better express ourselves.
Mods, is it acceptable to point out that someone may be extremely illiterate if they can’t tell the difference between adoration and worship?
We do pray to God directly. Who said we couldn’t?
How is that the purchase of an indulgence?
Ah, but this is only half the picture.
No one tears down a house only to build a worse one in its place.
The Protestant positions presented by the OP may be perfectly reasonable. Perhaps prayer to the saints is flawed. Perhaps the heirarchy of the Catholic Church is hopelessly prone to corruption. Perhaps the real presence is merely a parlor trick. Etc.
However – Protestants then go on to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Protestant teaching isn’t monolithic, but I’ll just use that term in place of “the followers of Luther” for now.
For example:
Protestants believe in salvation through faith alone, based on taking Paul’s teaching on the works of the old law not being required out of context.
Catholics believe in salvation through faith and the works of the New Law, based on the teachings of Jesus, St. Paul elsewhere, St. James, and St. John. As St. James said: faith without works [of the New Law] is dead.
Protestants believe all people have a sinful nature which can not be overcome. They believe God’s grace allows them not to have to try to overcome this nature.
Catholics believe the grace of God gives people the power to overcome their sinful nature.
Protestants don’t believe keeping Jesus’s commandments is possible, and thus don’t see keeping Jesus’s teachings a requirement of salvation.
Catholics believe all of the faithful are called to keep Jesus’s commandments.
Protestants don’t believe that the Evangelical Council of the Perfection of Charity (i.e. “go sell all that you have and give the money as alms”) is one of Jesus’s commandments, but merely Jesus’s instructions to one guy long since dead, ignoring the fact that Jesus gave this commandment to all of his followers in his Sermon to the Multitudes.
Catholics believe this Evangelical Council is inseparable from Jesus’s other commandments.
Perhaps, but that doesn’t make the followers of Luther Christians by default either.
Oh, most certainly. The Pharisees weren’t right because the Saducees were wrong, and the Saducees weren’t right because the Pharisees were wrong. Although, until Jesus showed up they never realized there was another way of looking at things. There are Christian denominations which are neither Catholic nor Protestant. It’s a false dichotomy.
Arggh! I thought kudi was the proper plural for “kudos”. A commentator on NPR, which is my light, my guide, my beacon, asserted this one time.
Now, I have nothing to lean on through these dark days. :eek:
Sua