I guess it could be legitimately argued that a devout Catholic who chose to jump was not abandonning their faith, but entrusting their lives to God. If He chose, they could have survived.
Catholics are not always consistent in thought (much the same as most religions, denominations etc). When my husband killed himself it was hinted, by his family, that it would be likely that he would not be welcomed in a Catholic cemetary (good, thought I …I wasn’t likely to bury him in one anyway) but his family were upset I had him cremated (also not a good thing to Catholics it seems). No pleasing some Catholics (Noooooooooo I am not anti Catholic…just atheist).
I think that the fatal? assumption in this argument is people who believe what these people did was considered suicide. Unlike suicide these people had few options on surviving their dilemma. In a suicide one has the luxury of choosing if they want to die NOT having to choose HOW they will die like in the WTC case. It was disturbing to say the least to watch these poor souls plummet to their death. To insult them further by assuming they had a choice of living or dying in this event is plain stupid and uncaring.
New York Catholic here, whose church lost several people and whose neighborhood, heavily Irish Catholic, lost 12. Issue has never come up at all or been mentioned. I don’t see how these deaths fit any definition of suicide I’ve heard in the Church or elsewhere.
Over the years, many Roman Catholic friends have told me that their faith considers suicide the one unforgivable sin.
However, I was informed on this board by a very knowledgable Catholic doper that this is not the case – he/she cited a passage in the cathechism (sic) that says something like, “we must pray for the redemption of the souls of suicides”, which would seem to contradict the claim that suicide is unforgivable by the RCC in all cases.
It seems to this non-Catholic that the people who jumped from the WTC would certainly be an object of such considerations.
Mehitable I am really glad to hear the the church has not mentioned the issue. That makes me feel better. That and the explaination from about the RCC changing it’s views on suicide.
Avenger I believe that was the point my sister was trying to make. She said “Jumping to safety” I believe she was implying that they were entrusting their lives to God.
I don’t think that it would be considered by any but the least enlightened as “unforgivable”, but I can see a case being made that a successful attempt at suicide means that the attempter never has the opportunity to ask for forgiveness - especially if you place great store in the ritual of Confession - and therefore arrives at before the Judgement Seat with at least one sin on thier slate. This (to my mind) is rather simplistic thinking - and betrays the “Divine Weasel” nature of the god they worship, the only safe way to live one’s life would be never to leave the confessional…
Grim
As for why someone would jump from a burning building, I seem to recall a Dateline or 20/20 type show that explained it a few years ago. Unfortunately, I don’t have a cite.
If a person is trapped in a burning building several stories up, say a hotel, and the room is filling with smoke, their first instinct is to get some fresh air, they go to the window. Even as they open the window and stick their head out they still cannot get some fresh air to breathe if the smoke in the room is too thick. The instinct is to go out the window so that they can breathe. At this point they don’t have any thought of the consequence of falling to the pavement. So it’s a survival instinct, not suicide.
BTW, I am Catholic and have always been told that suicide is a sin, but noone ever explained what constitutes a consious decision to commit suicide. We’ve been taught that giving your life to save another is definitely something that God would approve of, but isn’t this still technically suicide?
The persons involved had their fates sealed when the planes hit. They did not have a life to give away. I happen to be Catholic and believe that suicide is a sin, but sin requires the capacity and intent. These poor souls were incapacitated by the desperateness of the situation and the unbearable pain of the fire. The choice was one chance in a billion of jumping to safety somehow or zero chances in a billion by staying put. Not only did they not have the luxury of time to think, they actually improved their odds by jumping. My God, who is just and loving, will surely not hold this against them.
[ mini hijack ]
The RCC used to oppose cremation, based on the use of cremation by persecutors in the early days to deny the possibility of resurrection. Quite a while ago the church compared the fact that those persecutors no longer exist against the fact that Europe is running out of room for new cemetaries and dropped its opposition to creamtion–a point on which not everyone has gotten the word.
[ /hijack ]
Presumably, they’ve also recognized that there’s not a great deal of difference between consumption by fire and disintegration by decay. You’re disassociated molecules either way, after all.
tom: Good job! Thanks for posting the actual information regarding the Roman Catholic Church’s stance on suicides.
kiwi: You’ve encountered what seems to be so common with humanity: “I don’t care what any authority says now, this is the way I learned it from Grandma and the way she learned it from Grandma so that’s got to be the way it is.” Of course, it doesn’t matter that Great Great Grandman was mistaken.
Svt: You’re not aware that the Old Testament and the New Testament specify a different sin as the only unforgiveable sin?
FWIW Department: Here’s my church’s (LDS) stance on the issue of suicide (bolding and underlining mine):
I have always felt that these were NOT suicides. It is my opinion that the decison to jump was “self preservation”
They were surrounded by fire, thick smoke, heat (that was melting carpeting, desks, etc) they had no alternative but to “get out” at any cost. They just knew they coulnd’t stay put.
Was this a rational decision to jump from the 60th floor, 78th floor, 100th floor? Of course not. But under all that chaos and the fight or flight effect (IMO) they were not thinking clearly.
As far as my faith goes (I am a Christan) suicide is a no no and from my interpretation will land you in hell.
It is also my faith to be prepared because you never know when your number is up. If these people who jumped died and went to hell it is not because they “jumped” but because their life was not right with Christ.
Who are we to judge who is in heaven or hell? A human being can not know the heart and soul of another individual. It is up to God to decide.
Here’s how I see it in agreement with Isabelle: Your odds appear to be absolutely zero if you stay put or great gawshamighty slender if you jump. There are accounts of people falling very far distances somehow surviving. To judge all these people as guilty of suicide is to usurp God’s place. How does one know their minds, every single one of them?
Thus, I give them the benefit of the doubt and let God decide.
If one’s death depends on whether or not one’s “number is up,” then doesn’t that completely negate the particulars of how that death happened?
No I am not, so if you wouldn’t mind explaining, although I am aware that there are sins that God will hold you accountable for. To be guilty of a sin and to be forgiven of the same sin are two different issues. But I’ll wait for a ref.
A building is burning and there is no way out. I’m certain of death either way. Is this rejecting the gift of life? Not if outcomes are certain either way.
When a dying patient takes morphine to ease pain and that morphine slows the patient’s breathing, the death may happen faster but this is not suicide either.
We are obligated to preserve our own lives because they are a gift from God. If I can die instantly, why would a just Creator demand that I burn to death. He wouldn’t.
Here’s a useful link:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm
mft1234, I was just about to post that same link!
So, yes: those were suicides insofar as they knew that jumping would be fatal.
But, no: these individuals would not be condemned to hell for jumping. Staying inside the building would also constituted “negative” suicide (i.e., dying as a result of not taking action to preserve one’s life). When one considers that death by fire is supposed to be one of the most painful ways to die, one could say that jumping may actually have been preferable to staying inside and burning to death.
The Catholic Church recognizes there are different kinds of suicide, which entail different ethical considerations.
In fact, I can’t conceive of any religion or denomination that could condemn the 9/11 suicides on ethical grounds. I hope that preacher who Lissa heard condemning the suicides doesn’t represent his church–for that matter, I don’t consider him to be a representative of the human race–just a complete idiot.
Father James Martin is a Catholic priest and a journalist and a New Yorker who spent a bit of time at Ground Zero counseling rescue workers. In an interview about his experiences, he said:
Obviously he wasn’t making a statement on behalf of the Catholic Church, rather he was sharing a personal story. But it does show the attitude that I think (and hope) is more or less what is subscribed to by most Catholic clergy.
Svt: Scope out Exodus 20:7. Ponder on the phrase “the Lord will not hold him guiltless.”
Ponder also on the idea that not everyone is Christian and therefore does not honor the New Testament as Scripture.
Your earlier statement:
is absolutely outstanding.