# Catholics thinking of ordaining women? \[i.e. Roman Catholic Church's priorities fucked up. E **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 17, 2010, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036 "2010-07-17T15:04:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/41 "2010-07-18T03:55:23Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > False, we’re against artifical birth control. I’ll be needing a cite for the suffering part. The only birth control that works is artificial birth control, so you’re wrong there. Being pregnant and not being able to terminate will inevitably lead to suffering. Try hard, I trust that you will eventually come up with a scenario. > [@](#): > > No more than any other organisation at worst. You are mis-informed. There isn’t a willful attempt to move around and hide the information about pedophiles in any other industry I’m aware of. And seriously, fuck the pope for being a part of it. > [@](#): > > Wrong, condoms have not been effective aginst AIDS in Africa. Condoms work. Explain in detail how African Aids has super powers. > [@](#): > > Wrong. > [@](#): > > Wrong. Read my quotes above to find out why you’re no correct. Or you could write in detail why I’m wrong. 😃 > [@](#): > > They will gladly council restrain when an action, desirable as it may be, may cause he death of another person. There is no person involved in the vast majority of cases. But even if you are silly enough to believe in a soul, killing the mother to save no one is evil. > [@](#): > > Finally something right. However, all oganisation have he right to aspire that laws are the way they want. They don’t have a right to make others live by them. And in any case, they’re still evil. You can see it, you just don’t want to. Sorry your church’s administration is a bunch of assholes. > [@](#): > > ## Thanks for the backhand compliments. “Catholics, not as bad and shitty as they could be” > > To the OP: No, we’ll never see ordained women. Catholics in general are probably as good as the population. Catholic administrators have worked together to produce an evil organization. If they aren’t evil, they’re incompetent. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/42 "2010-07-18T05:08:40Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > But surely there’s some difference between a private club - in which, generally, membership of is a matter of personal interest - and a religious organisation, in which generally membership is a matter of personal belief? That’s a difference, I suppose, but you’re still free to quit the Church whenever you choose. No one forces you to believe. No one forces you to profess faith, as was done in the past. > [@](#): > > Quitting a club requires denial of something you’re interested in in some way, which may well be a hardship but does at least only have the lack of that interest being met to dissuade you. Quitting the Church puts your soul at risk; Only if you believe. You’re free not to believe. > [@](#): > > really, all countries in the world are places where you are required to be a member of the Church. I assume there is a typo in there somewhere. > [@](#): > > It’s a requirement forced by your own belief, rather than an outside body, but that’s no less a restriction. If it’s your own belief, what’s the problem? No one forces you to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/43 "2010-07-18T05:27:17Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s the fault of those institution that allow themselves to be influenced by the Church. It’s a private club by any meaningful definition. Don’t like it, don’t join. … Not really. It is, among other things, a sovereign nation. It has diplomatic ties with almost every nation on earth. The Vatican is considered a non-member state by the UN, according to Wiki. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/44 "2010-07-18T05:38:08Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Not really. It is, among other things, a sovereign nation. It has diplomatic ties with almost every nation on earth. The Vatican is considered a non-member state by the UN, according to Wiki. And its citizens are citizens by choice. From wikipedia: > [@](#): > > Unlike citizenship of other states, which is based either on jus sanguinis (birth from a citizen, even outside the state’s territory) or on jus soli (birth within the territory of the state), citizenship of Vatican City is granted jus officii, namely on the grounds of appointment to work in a certain capacity in the service of the Holy See. It usually ceases upon cessation of the appointment. Citizenship is extended also to the spouse, parents and descendants of a citizen, provided they are living with the person who is a citizen.[39][40] > > Anyone who on loss of Vatican citizenship possesses no other citizenship, as judged by Italian law, automatically becomes an Italian citizen.[17] Private club. ---
**Author:** ![peledre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/779978/32.png) [@peledre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/peledre)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/45 "2010-07-18T08:46:06Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Not it a private club, where anyone who wishes to can leave. I assume you have no problem with “whites only” country clubs? ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/46 "2010-07-18T13:25:28Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Eh. It’s a club, and clubs get to make their own rules. Don’t like it? Don’t join. That’s all very well, but the pedophiiac priests are guilty of serious secular crimes and the bishops and hither church authorities are guilty of covering up a crime (accessory after the fact, if not more serious offenses) and the church is asking the secular authorities to butt out. Until they start coming clean and reporting the guilty priests to secular authorities they deserve all the negative publicity they gather. If they want to continue their patriarchical ways, that is their business, but if they equate it with serious crimes, they are opening themselves to well-deserved ridicule.. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/47 "2010-07-18T13:47:19Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Everyone has the right to their opinion of course. But the Catholic Church is far from the happy place you paint. > > Off the top of my head, the evils they currently cause: > > They are against birth control, leading to incalculable suffering. > They systematically enable and cover up priests raping children. > They lie about the effectiveness of condoms, particularly in Africa, leading to spread of disease. > They terrify unhappy people into staying in loveless marriages, for fear of being cast into hell. > They frighten children into sobbing guilt about something as banal as masturbation. > They will gladly council a woman to kill herself in childbirth, when a legal alternative is available. > They actively fight the right of non-Catholic gays to marry. > > I’m not saying that they do no good, I’m saying that the good they do is secondary to spreading their influence. The Catholic Church, in my opinion, just isn’t morally good. > > I should mention, I’d trade the Evangelical-Loons we have in America for an equal number of additional Catholics any day. Let me expand on this a bit. The church has always said that only “natural methods” of population control are acceptable. I am unaware if they ever expanded on what that meant, but I imagine that if asked they would reply, “celibacy” and perhaps Vatican roulette. But when I hear those words I can only picture disease and death. And indeed the Vatican (and, to be sure, the Evangelicals) have influenced the US to ban any aid to programs that provide condoms in Africa and elsewhere. I would not (quite) go so far as to say that this is the Vatican’s official population control policy, but it fits. Regardless, the church’s attitude to condoms has to be counted as one of the greatest abettors of the spreads of HIV in the world today. Isn’t that sufficient to call them an evil organization? ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/48 "2010-07-18T13:50:20Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Let me expand on this a bit. The church has always said that only “natural methods” of population control are acceptable. I am unaware if they ever expanded on what that meant, but I imagine that if asked they would reply, “celibacy” and perhaps Vatican roulette. But when I hear those words I can only picture disease and death. And indeed the Vatican (and, to be sure, the Evangelicals) have influenced the US to ban any aid to programs that provide condoms in Africa and elsewhere. I would not (quite) go so far as to say that this is the Vatican’s official population control policy, but it fits. Regardless, the church’s attitude to condoms has to be counted as one of the greatest abettors of the spreads of HIV in the world today. \*\* Isn’t that sufficient to call them an evil organization?\*\* Not quite. One should never ascribe to malice what may be explained by stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/49 "2010-07-18T14:30:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > That’s a difference, I suppose, but you’re still free to quit the Church whenever you choose. No one forces you to believe. No one forces you to profess faith, as was done in the past. Certainly someone does; you do. I don’t know your particular beliefs, or lack of them. But if we are free not to believe, then I challenge you to alter them. Make yourself believe the opposite of what you normally believe; if you’re religious, make yourself an atheist or adherent of another religion. If you’re an atheist, make yourself believe. You can’t choose to believe or not. It’s not within our power to select. You are, generally, free from outside influence as to that. But not from inside influence. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/50 "2010-07-18T14:48:43Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > Certainly someone does; you do. > > I don’t know your particular beliefs, or lack of them. But if we are free not to believe, then I challenge you to alter them. Make yourself believe the opposite of what you normally believe; if you’re religious, make yourself an atheist or adherent of another religion. If you’re an atheist, make yourself believe. > > You can’t choose to believe or not. It’s not within our power to select. You are, generally, free from outside influence as to that. But not from inside influence. Well, that’s true of everything. If I join a bridge club, it’s because I like playing bridge. No one can force me to like it, and if I do like it, I can’t convince myself to not like it. You may grow to like it or dislike it over time, but again, that’s like everything. And we see people switching religions, giving up religion, or taking up religion all the time. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/51 "2010-07-18T14:51:49Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > That’s all very well, but the pedophiiac priests are guilty of serious secular crimes and the bishops and hither church authorities are guilty of covering up a crime (accessory after the fact, if not more serious offenses) and the church is asking the secular authorities to butt out. Until they start coming clean and reporting the guilty priests to secular authorities they deserve all the negative publicity they gather. > > If they want to continue their patriarchical ways, that is their business, but if they equate it with serious crimes, they are opening themselves to well-deserved ridicule.. As I already pointed out, they do categorize them differently. How serious the acts are depends on what you believe. And you may not be a believer, but if you are a believer, violating the sacraments is a damn serious crime. You are judging their belief system from outside that belief system. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/52 "2010-07-18T15:01:42Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, that’s true of everything. If I join a bridge club, it’s because I like playing bridge. No one can force me to like it, and if I do like it, I can’t convince myself to not like it. You may grow to like it or dislike it over time, but again, that’s like everything. That’s true. But if you’re ejected from a bridge club, you lose the ability to play bridge with them. If you’re ejected from the Church, you run the risk of losing your soul. One strikes me as rather different than the other. > [@](#): > > And we see people switching religions, giving up religion, or taking up religion all the time. True. There’s all those “What made you change your religion?” threads that pop up around here every now and again, and so far as I remember there hasn’t been anyone who’s said “Oh, I just changed my mind”. It’s the result of experience, not active choice. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/53 "2010-07-18T15:11:10Z")
The church is not a club. They educate and train kids from babyhood into believing. Calling them club trivializes the church and its power both over people and governments across the world. It is more like a cult. It implies if you don’t like it you can just walk away. Very few can. They are raised with it ingrained into their lives and just walking away is not possible for many without deep and difficult psychological trauma. It is not like dropping a country club membership because they ban blacks or women. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/54 "2010-07-18T15:47:54Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Calling them club trivializes the church and its power… Wasn’t that the point, just as talking pedophiles and female clergy in the same story trivializes both issues? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/55 "2010-07-18T15:51:34Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > That’s true. But if you’re ejected from a bridge club, you lose the ability to play bridge with them. If you’re ejected from the Church, you run the risk of losing your soul. One strikes me as rather different than the other. Well, no one actually gets ejected from the Church. You get ex-communicated, which means you can’t take communion. We should keep that straight. And if you want to take communion again, you confess and change your ways. If you don’t want to change your ways, then you’ve chosen to reject the beliefs of the Church. It’s not like they just randomly excommunicate people. In many ways, it’s much more open than a private club would be. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/56 "2010-07-18T16:01:13Z")
Now that the thread title reflects the true nature of the OP (let’s bash the RCC), and now that there is a thread dedicated to discussing whether or not the RCC is a club, I’m going to take my argument over there. You guys can continue your bashing of the RCC here. **Revenant Threshold** : BTW, I was raised Catholic, indoctrinated in Catholic schools, and quite easily became a non-believer as a teenager. It wasn’t difficult in the least. Most Americans seem to have no trouble being “cafeteria Catholics”, and not letting the belief system interfere with their life in any significant way. For example, when I was kid, the large Catholic family was a cliche. Now it’s an endangered species. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/57 "2010-07-18T16:35:29Z")
> [@Squink](#): > > Wasn’t that the point, just as talking pedophiles and female clergy in the same story trivializes both issues? Or does the opposite. The church has covered up pedophile priests for generations. They have paid billions to the people the church representatives harmed. It is not trivial . It has greatly harmed the church. So putting women being ordained in the same article makes it a very great sin indeed. It elevates its importance. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/58 "2010-07-18T16:48:36Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Now that the thread title reflects the true nature of the OP (let’s bash the RCC)… This was a particularly gutless move by anonymous mods. Do they plan on making a habit of changing titles to reflect their own personal biases? If they thought the thread deserved to be moved to the pit, they should have done that, not graffitied the title. I’d start a little ATMB thread on this, but I just don’t care enough to do so. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/59 "2010-07-18T16:50:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Well, no one actually gets ejected from the Church. You get ex-communicated, which means you can’t take communion. We should keep that straight. And if you want to take communion again, you confess and change your ways. If you don’t want to change your ways, then you’ve chosen to reject the beliefs of the Church. It’s not like they just randomly excommunicate people. I think you’ve got it wrong. It’s not a matter of not wanting to change your ways, it’s a matter of not changing your ways. You can not want to change your ways, yet do so, due to the risk of excommunication. I think that’s the problem; for someone of faith, it’s really quite a strong sword over their heads. I think ejection is a fine term. I don’t mean by it a literal enforcement of bouncers removing you from Church property. I mean the removal of that person (well, the message of removal) from the “communion” of the Church. It’s an indication of seperation. > [@](#): > > In many ways, it’s much more open than a private club would be. Probably depends on the club. But I would say that even if you really like to play pool, or whatever, religious faith is generally rather more of an important subject. > [@](#): > > Revenant Threshold: BTW, I was raised Catholic, indoctrinated in Catholic schools, and quite easily became a non-believer as a teenager. It wasn’t difficult in the least. Most Americans seem to have no trouble being “cafeteria Catholics”, and not letting the belief system interfere with their life in any significant way. I don’t disagree. But “becoming a non-believer” is not the same as choosing to become a non-believer. As I said, it’s a matter of experience, not choice. I have no trouble at all believing that, as a result of life experiences, or outside events, a person might find themselves changing their minds. I have a great deal of trouble with equating changing religious belief to a simple choice. > [@](#): > > For example, when I was kid, the large Catholic family was a cliche. Now it’s an endangered species. But not as a result of active choice. As just a general question, i’m unsure, but does your point about Catholic bashing being in the same post as your response to me mean you’re accusing me of it? I didn’t think it was, but I thought i’d check. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2010, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036/60 "2010-07-18T16:59:54Z")
> [@Revenant\_Threshold](#): > > I think you’ve got it wrong. It’s not a matter of not wanting to change your ways, it’s a matter of not changing your ways. You can not want to change your ways, yet do so, due to the risk of excommunication. I think that’s the problem; for someone of faith, it’s really quite a strong sword over their heads. But that’s the whole point of what it means to practice this religion. You get tempted all the time to disobey the rules and you choose not to give in. You could steal, but you choose not to. You could cheat on your wife, but you choose not to. You could get an abortion, but you choose not to. > [@](#): > > I think ejection is a fine term. I don’t mean by it a literal enforcement of bouncers removing you from Church property. I mean the removal of that person (well, the message of removal) from the “communion” of the Church. It’s an indication of seperation. Not a big deal, but I think it’s inaccurate. You’re not barred from attending Church services. You’re not shunned, and you’re easily able to rejoin if you repent. > [@](#): > > As just a general question, i’m unsure, but does your point about Catholic bashing being in the same post as your response to me mean you’re accusing me of it? I didn’t think it was, but I thought i’d check. No, I didn’t mean that you were bashing the RCC. I made that post, and then realized I hadn’t answered your earlier question. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-thinking-of-ordaining-women-i-e-roman-catholic-churchs-priorities-fucked-up-e/547036.md?page=4)