# Catholics: What if Hitler had made a "deathbed confession"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 5, 2003, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865 "2003-06-05T16:56:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/21 "2003-06-05T21:16:10Z")
I know the OP asked for the Catholic view, and I know what the Catholic view _is_ on the subject, but since **JD** horned in with a _non_-Catholic answer, I wanted to challenge that answer. God has “rules,” huh? Jesus gave two rules only: Love God and love thy neighbor. “Do this,” he said, “and you shall live.” Nothing about accepting anybody as a savior, nothing about any particular doctrine. In the parable of the goats and the sheep, Jesus defined those two rules as synonomous ("…whatever you have done to the least of my brothers…"), so really, according to Jesus, himself, all you have to do is love your neighbor. The RCC does does not rule out salvation for anybody as it is a gift from God, not a product of human effort. Effort _counts_, though, in Catholicism, God _notices_ sincere effort to seek out the good, but the effort, alone, is not the decisive factor. So, yes, Hitler conceivably could have been saved, but it would have required an absolutely transfiguring revelation and repentance on his part. His conversion could not be based in any way on fear, and he would have to truly appreciate his crimes. He would probably still get a few billion years in purgatory, though. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/22 "2003-06-05T21:19:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\* > Beagledave, there are Jewish people who are Christians. I use to go to one of their churches. > \*\* Mmmm sorry, but no. I suppose folks can “call” themselves whatever they please, but Jewish folks are not Christian, as Zev…Chaim…and a whole bunch of folks more knowledgable about Judaism than me would be happy to explain. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/23 "2003-06-05T21:24:22Z")
> [@](#): > > Beagledave, there are Jewish people who are Christians. I use to go to one of their churches. If you’re talking about Messianic Jews, they are ethnic Jews who have converted to Christianity. They are not religious Jews. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/24 "2003-06-05T21:33:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*If you’re talking about Messianic Jews, they are ethnic Jews who have converted to Christianity. They are not religious Jews. \*\* Thanks for the clarification that I should have included in my response. “Jews for Jesus” et al would not be thought of as “religious Jews” regardless of their ethnicity. ---
**Author:** ![Neurotik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/91b2a8/32.png) [@Neurotik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Neurotik)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/25 "2003-06-05T23:07:26Z")
I’d like to point out that since Hitler probably committed suicide, it’s all kind of moot. Suicide is a sin, and I’m not sure how you truly repent from that one. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/26 "2003-06-05T23:13:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Neurotik \* > \*\*I’d like to point out that since Hitler probably committed suicide, it’s all kind of moot. Suicide is a sin, and I’m not sure how you truly repent from that one. \*\* It was, of course, a hypothetical question. The issue is whether somebody who does horrible, atrocious acts along the lines of genocide can, according to Catholic theology, receive absolution of his sins if he makes a deathbed confession. Hitler was just an example. Pol Pot would probably also qualify. Barry ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/27 "2003-06-05T23:26:11Z")
**Diogenes** , you’ve touched on what is perhaps the most contentious point of theological disagreement between the RCC and many Protestant denominations: salvation by faith and salvation by works. The Protestants in question say that accepting Jesus into your heart, is necessary and sufficient for salvation – no actions required, no anything. The Catholic point of view is that faith wothout works is dead – that with faith, the works of faith are inevitable. ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2003, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/28 "2003-06-05T23:40:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by autz \* > \*\*What is “Blasphemy against the Spirit” and why is it unforgivable? \*\* The blasphemy being referred to is taking the works of God and attributing them to Satan. Just a minor nitpick…if you believe in heaven and hell… **Ain’t no one in hell yet people!!** Or did I get drunk and miss judgement day? ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/29 "2003-06-06T00:01:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by beagledave \* > Mmmm sorry, but no. **I suppose folks can “call” themselves whatever they please** , \ _Bolding mine:_ At least we agree on that much. I won’t argue, everyone has their opinion. I will let the Catholic Christians continue to answer ---
**Author:** ![Reeder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Reeder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reeder)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/30 "2003-06-06T00:09:10Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JerseyDiamond \* > \*\* > I will let the Catholic Christians continue to answer \*\* That’s mighty big of you. I’m not a catholic Christian, whatever that is. May I answer? ---
**Author:** ![JerseyDiamond](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8491ac/32.png) [@JerseyDiamond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JerseyDiamond)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/31 "2003-06-06T00:30:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Reeder \* > That’s mighty big of you. Gee, thank. > [@](#): > > I’m not a catholic Christian, whatever that is. I think it means: member of the Catholic Church, who follows Catholic doctrine, who follows Christ. But I can see how that could be confusing. :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > May I answer? Well, since: > [@](#): > > I know the OP asked for the Catholic view, and I know what the Catholic view is on the subject, but since JD horned in with a non-Catholic answer, I wanted to challenge that answer. And I cannot retract my own answer, but if I could I would. I wouldn’t suggest it, but I couldn’t care less what you do. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/32 "2003-06-06T00:43:58Z")
Can Jesus/God forgive me for being an atheist? Not a god-hating atheist, but one who is unconvinced by the proofs? Even if I tried a deathbed confession, if I could not sincerely make myself believe the evidence, could I still go to heaven (if it existed). Wouldn’t God see past that? Would I be considered a blasphemer? Unable to enter heaven? Is disbelief based on the lack of evidence worse than what Hitler did? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/33 "2003-06-06T00:52:27Z")
Well, the Catholic position is that it is NOT up to us, mere mortals, to say who is damned to Hell. Because it’s hubris, pure and simple. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/34 "2003-06-06T00:53:34Z")
First: Haven’t we had the “Does Christianity/Catholicism say even HITLER could be saved?” thread several times in the past year’s time? The answer is YES, already. Second (Catholicism-specific): Penance/absolution are not voodoo. Having the Padre say the words and make the hand gestures means jack if you are nor TRULY repentant. And God knows if you are. In the case of particularly heinous crimes, the priest is entitled to make it a condition of penance that you turn yourself in to justice. A priest CAN refuse absolution if the penitent refuses to perform his penance. And of course, there’s the convenient device of Purgatory, where you may spend a couple of aeons getting a comeuppance before making it into Paradise. Third, on **JerseyDiamond** ’s slight hijack: On an earlier post, Bricker wrote: > [@](#): > > Catholics believe that there are many people that would have accepted baptism, and Christ Jesus, had they had a meaningful opportunity to do so, and predict that, through God’s mercy, they are saved. This is understood to include people who have been presented with a perverted version of Christianity, and refused _that_. Howwever, as recently as 2000 the Vatican HAS found it necessary to reiterate, in Papal and curial statements, that the source of Salvation **IS** Jesus Christ, _though he may reach to those outside the formal christian church_, and all possible reasonable effort should be made to get the word out so people DO become christians, and preferrably Catholic. Jews do get Eternal Life, once the Messiah shows up it’ll turn out it’s JC after all. Or so they say. The 1994 Catechism of the RCC, as official as it gets, says: > [@](#): > > The Church and non-Christians > 839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”[325] > The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,[326] “the first to hear the Word of God.”[327] **The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation** in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,[328] “for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.”[329] > > 840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus. > > 841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”[330] > > 842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race: > All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .[331] > > 843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.”[332] > > 844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: > Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.[333] > > 845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.[334] > > “Outside the Church there is no salvation” > 846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?[335] Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body: > Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.[336] > > 847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: > Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.[337] (IOW, everyone else is actually trying to get to where the RCC is even if they don’t know it, and the RCC is the one that got everything right, and is trying to get the word out – Huh.) Again, the “through no fault of their own” has been interpreted to include the situations where the Gospel is presented incompetently or in a twisted fashion or where Christianity has been reduced to just a cultural practice. ---
**Author:** ![beagledave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@beagledave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beagledave)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/35 "2003-06-06T01:03:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by HubZilla \* > \*\*could I still go to heaven… \*\* You’re worried about getting to a place you don’t believe in…as judged by a God you don’t believe in? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/36 "2003-06-06T01:17:40Z")
DiamondJersey: > [@](#): > > All we need to know is that God is just and fair. You left out _merciful_. Bricker: > [@](#): > > The Protestants in question say that accepting Jesus into your heart, is necessary and sufficient for salvation – no actions required, no anything. I hear what you are saying but you’ve given it a twist by leaving out an important belief. The Protestants who believe that they have salvation through the grace of God also generally believe that good works will be the result of our salvation – not the cause of it. It’s not as if we ignore good works. 🙂 But we are human and will continue to make mistakes for which we ask forgiveness. I was always taught that the Unforgiveable Sin is turning away from God. That does mean that the person is cast into hell, but that the presence of God would not be particularly valued. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/37 "2003-06-06T01:18:38Z")
One thing nobody’s mentioned yet is that sin is wholly dependent on the ability to make free choices. If someone’s not making relatively unfettered choices of their own free will, then they’re not wholly culpable for what sins they may commit, e.g. soldiers killing in self defense, mothers stealing food for starving children, and all manner of things that the mentally ill or developmentally challenged may do. In other words, you have to know it’s wrong and have little in the way of mitigating factors and do it anyway to be truly culpable. This is a bit hazy from theology class from 1989, but I think I remember the meat of the argument. Back to the OP… so one way that Hitler may not be damned is if he was mentally ill from the get- go. ---
**Author:** ![godzillatemple](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/49beb7/32.png) [@godzillatemple](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/godzillatemple)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/38 "2003-06-06T01:54:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bump \* > \*\*Back to the OP… so one way that Hitler may not be damned is if he was mentally ill from the get- go. \*\* Well, once could argue that anybody who could commit such atrocities would _have_ to be mentally ill, but I don’t think I want to go there. Oh – and I apologize if the topic has been discussed before in the recent past. Barry ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/39 "2003-06-06T02:41:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by bump \* > \*\*In other words, you have to know it’s wrong and have little in the way of mitigating factors and do it anyway to be truly culpable. > > This is a bit hazy from theology class from 1989, but I think I remember the meat of the argument. > > Back to the OP… so one way that Hitler may not be damned is if he was mentally ill from the get- go. \*\* While Hitler was mentally ill in the sense that he was a psychopath - e.g. he lacked foresight, conscience, empathy, and a refusal to accept personal responsibility - he was not INSANE. He was aware of reality and was making his decisions as a competent actor. ---
**Author:** ![andymurph64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@andymurph64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andymurph64)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865/40 "2003-06-06T02:46:51Z")
I am no longer a Catholic but was raised by serious Catholics… From my memory, Catholics do not believe in just Heaven/Hell but also Purgatory. Purgatory is a place of punishment and learning. The punishment can be as extreme as Hell but the people experiencing Purgatory know they will eventually go to Heaven. However, the length of stay varies from person to person. Everyone spends at least some time in Purgatory. I imagine a repentent Hitler would spend much time there 😉 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catholics-what-if-hitler-had-made-a-deathbed-confession/179865.md?page=3)