# Cato Institute: "Blocking Obama’s Health Plan Is Key to the GOP’s Survival" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075 "2008-11-23T04:59:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/1 "2008-11-23T04:59:46Z")
Michael F Cannon of the Cato Institute doesn’t offer any sort of in-depth argument for his position, but he [states](http://www.cato-at-liberty.org/2008/11/13/blocking-obamas-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gops-survival/) (I am not familiar with Cannon, but Cato is a libertarian think-tank): > [@](#): > > Blocking Obama’s Health Plan Is Key to the GOP’s Survival He bases that on [these statements](http://www.politicalaffairs.net/article/articleview/7722/) by Norman Markowitz (I am not familiar with Markowitz, but he appears to be a self-avowed Marxist): > [@](#): > > A “single payer” national health system – known as “socialized medicine” in the rest of the developed world – should be an essential part of the change that the core constituencies which elected Obama desperately need. Britain serves as an important political lesson for strategists. After the Labor Party established the National Health Service after World War II, supposedly conservative workers and low-income people under religious and other influences who tended to support the Conservatives were much more likely to vote for the Labor Party when health care, social welfare, education and pro-working class policies were enacted by labor-supported governments. > [@](#): > > Because the more socialism comes to be identified with real policies that raise the standard of living and improve the quality of life for the working class and the whole people, the more socialism will be looked at seriously. So, the question I guess is, “Is this nuts?” Frankly, I have no issue with someone arguing against certain health care plans because they think they are wrong or will fail. But to argue against them because it would cause their political party to lose ground, which is what Cannon seems to be suggesting the Republicans do, would be a whole 'nother level of cynicism. And I don’t see how socialized medicine/health care reform/universal care are necessarily in conflict with Republican ideology. Yes, there are libertarian Republicans who would be horrified, but there are also populist Republicans and probably a healthy chunk of the Evangelical and Catholic votes who wouldn’t necessarily be. So why this idea that it’s health care that would cause the tilt rather than assuming that were it popular enough the party would simply get on board? Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/2 "2008-11-23T05:16:24Z")
I think he’s right. The Republican party is failing because the Republican party is out of touch with the core issues where it has a real rational and fundamental point. As soon as the Republican party became all about profligate spending to support foreign nations, it’s arguments about big government health care all started to fall flat. They don’t have contact with meat and potatoes issues anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/3 "2008-11-23T05:34:56Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > And I don’t see how socialized medicine/health care reform/universal care are necessarily in conflict with Republican ideology. Yes, there are libertarian Republicans who would be horrified, but there are also populist Republicans and probably a healthy chunk of the Evangelical and Catholic votes who wouldn’t necessarily be. So why this idea that it’s health care that would cause the tilt rather than assuming that were it popular enough the party would simply get on board? Because if it goes into effect and it works, that would be another nail in the coffin of the “government is always bad” dogma. Plus, an awful lot of the Republican base simply hates the idea of helping anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/4 "2008-11-23T05:55:03Z")
This is a replay of 1993. The MSM blamed the insurance lobby for the failure of health care reform, but Republican obstructionism played a bigger role, IMO. The Dems entered the 1994 election with a demoralized constituency and an energetic opposition, leading to the Republican takeover. So obstructionism worked. Smearing national healthcare with terms like “Socialized Medicine” is straight from the Republican playbook. Expect them to try it again. It’s not a bad strategy. For a party that has essentially run out of ideas, knee jerk opposition is the only thing left. For the talk-radio nutjobs, there is no honeymoon. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/5 "2008-11-23T06:08:46Z")
That’s interesting. We hear from them all the time that the British system is awful, and people hate it. Now this guy is saying it is so awful that those under it tended to vote for Labor. I think he’s right. If a good system gets enacted, those who are living in fear of health costs today are going to be solid Democrats. Say what you will about FDR curing the Depression, but people like my parents idolized him because he actually did something to reduce their fear. Second, a successful health care program is going to destroy the credibility of those predicting disaster - and maybe some independents will distrust the Republicans even more. Notice that this guy cares nothing about the fate of the un- and under-insured. Who cares if they go bankrupt from healthcare costs - at least we’ll have a shot at government. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/6 "2008-11-23T09:18:01Z")
An amazing combination of delusions. One, the Cato nutjob, who [believes](http://www.cato.org/pubs/bp/bp108.pdf) that > [@](#): > > America’s health sector is already more than half socialized and Obama’s plan is to take it much farther down that line. Sure, the definition of “socialized medicine” for him is the effective “control of resources” be they privately or publicly held. Regulated insurance companies are socialism to him and that is indeed part of what Obama proposes. The second, Markowitz, is just as delusional and anticipates that Obama will implement a single payor system, something that Obama has not proposed. That’s socialized medicine to him, and he wants it. So while neither agrees on what is desirable, and both disagree about what Obama is wanting to do, they both can agree that what will result is socialized medicine. They just don’t agree on what the words mean. And both are crazy. Let’s get this straight. Obama is not proposing single payor. And regulation of private interests such that their pursuit of their own self-interests serves the public good is not socialism. As to the rest- one suspects that some of the GOP believe similarly: preventing any good from coming out of this administration’s time is, these misguided ones think, in their dogma’s best interests. There will be some who vote according to that agenda. But not all. There are enough who, to borrow from McCain, really do put country above party. Those who would attempt to obstruct and by so subvert success for this country in order to serve partisan interests will only succeed in further marginalizing themselves. The GOP will not disappear, but its future will be in the hands of those who work to get this country back on track, not in the hands of those who are trying to slash the tires. ---
**Author:** ![cckerberos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@cckerberos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cckerberos)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/7 "2008-11-23T11:34:08Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Frankly, I have no issue with someone arguing against certain health care plans because they think they are wrong or will fail. But to argue against them because it would cause their political party to lose ground, which is what Cannon seems to be suggesting the Republicans do, would be a whole 'nother level of cynicism. Reading the article, I wouldn’t at all be surprised to find that Cannon is not a Republican. He just gave a political analysis without endorsing the GOP. That said, there are certainly a number of libertarians who oppose universal health care from a moral standpoint rather than a pragmatic one. Sure, they often argue that the government will screw things up because it’s more appealing to non-libertarians, but in the end whether it succeeds or not is irrelevant; they feel that government involvement is wrong, irregardless of the results. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/8 "2008-11-23T14:01:42Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > There will be some who vote according to that agenda. But not all. There are enough who, to borrow from McCain, really do put country above party. > > Those who would attempt to obstruct and by so subvert success for this country in order to serve partisan interests will only succeed in further marginalizing themselves. The GOP will not disappear, but its future will be in the hands of those who work to get this country back on track, not in the hands of those who are trying to slash the tires. I’d be surprised to see that happen. As far as I can tell, “Party Above Country” is the unspoken central dogma of the Republican leadership. I think the Republican Party would have to chuck out the majority of it’s present management to change that, and I don’t think they are hurting enough for anything that radical. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/9 "2008-11-23T15:10:09Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I’d be surprised to see that happen. As far as I can tell, “Party Above Country” is the unspoken central dogma of the Republican leadership. I think the Republican Party would have to chuck out the majority of it’s present management to change that, and I don’t think they are hurting enough for anything that radical. It takes a party at least two ass-kickings to learn a lesson. If they’re destroyed again in 2012, the party will have to start reorienting itself. Politics is Darwinian, after all; if your message doesn’t win votes you don’t stay employed in the field. We don’t know for sure that they’ll get crushed in 2012 and anything can happen in 4 years but I suspect they will; I have a feeling they’re going to nominate a fundamentalist and get wiped out pretty badly. - Total Off Topic Nitpick:\* Der Trihs, I actually like a lot of your posts and think you add a lot to the board. Would you please learn the “it’s” vs. “its” thing? For a smart guy who’s willing to think outside the box on a lot of issues it kind of distracts from a lot of the good points you make, and you seem to get that one wrong almost every time you use one word or the other. I’m really sorry for the nitpick, and I wouldn’t bother if it was someone whose contribution I didn’t think was worth it. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/10 "2008-11-23T15:25:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Total Off Topic Nitpick:\* Der Trihs, I actually like a lot of your posts and think you add a lot to the board. Would you please learn the “it’s” vs. “its” thing? For a smart guy who’s willing to think outside the box on a lot of issues it kind of distracts from a lot of the good points you make, and you seem to get that one wrong almost every time you use one word or the other. I’m really sorry for the nitpick, and I wouldn’t bother if it was someone whose contribution I didn’t think was worth it. Actually, I’ve never noticed I did that and no one has ever mentioned it to me before. I’ll try to remember. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/11 "2008-11-23T16:45:53Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > Reading the article, I wouldn’t at all be surprised to find that Cannon is not a Republican. He just gave a political analysis without endorsing the GOP. No, I wasn’t suggesting that Cannon is a Republican. But he’s proposing to Republicans that disaster looms for _them_ in the form of “socialized medicine.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/73ab20/32.png) [@The\_Tao\_s\_Revenge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Tao_s_Revenge)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/12 "2008-11-23T17:16:15Z")
If it hurts the Republican party that increases my support for it even more! That’s what those lying traitorous scum bags get for inflicting Bush and his policies on us. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/13 "2008-11-23T17:24:10Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As far as I can tell, “Party Above Country” is the unspoken central dogma of the Republican leadership. I disagree with this. I think that, to a certain breed of Republicans, the GOP and its constituents _are_ are the country. Everyone else is an illegal immigrant or a traitor. To these people, the only hope for the country (aka for the true believers in the GOP, Party of Patriots) is to oppose everything that the illegal immigrants and traitors want. The people who are freaking out about Obama being president really seem to think that way. Anyone think I’m exaggerating? Paid a visit to the Free Republic lately? ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/14 "2008-11-23T17:39:58Z")
> [@Knorf](#): > > I disagree with this. I think that, to a certain breed of Republicans, the GOP and its constituents _are_ are the country. Nate Silver has a great article about that on fivethirtyeight, where he interviews John Ziegler, a right wing talk show host. Ziegler refuses to defend any of his claims, saying, literally, “I can’t BELIEVE” that anyone didn’t see it his way. This sort of thing will be found in any political party; a certain percentage of partisans just don’t have the intellectual capacity or moral courage to fathom that decent people might disagree. But sometimes it’s more prevalent in a party than at other times, and it seems to come out strongly when a party is in a bad state. It’s not so much that all Republicans believe they are the country as it is that they just cannot understand that they need to convince people. They’re convinced they’re right to the extent that they cannot comprehend why people don’t agree with them and so they forget that they have to convince people they’re right. In Canada we’ve seen this behaviour from both the right AND left, just in the last ten or twelve years; in the 90s the largest conservative party, the Reform Party, had much the same problem; there was a sense that they felt they were right, couldn’t believe anyone would think otherwise, and so couldn’t communicate their message in a way that would convince swing voters. There was a tangible sense of disbelief on their part that anyone would not vote Reform, so their message was essentially, “If you don’t vote for us you must be stupid,” and then after every election there would be wailing and gnashing of teeth and screaming from the Reform Party that somehow the results of the election were wrong, that the people had made a mistake. It reached its nadir in 2000 when (by then styled the Canadian Alliance) the party actually seemed to be hinting that anyone who voted against them supported child molestation. This did not work, predictably enough. After the conservatives sort of unified under the Conservative Party, in the early part of this decade the Liberal Party started to unravel in a storm of scandals, criminal charges and backstabbing, and lost its way, and now they’ve been doing exactly the same thing the Reform Party used to do, especially in the 2006 election; while the Conservative Party put huge amounts of effort into convincing people to vote for them, the Liberals didn’t really say much more than “If you don’t vote Liberal, you aren’t a real Canadian.” This did not work, predictably enough. I think the Republican Party is where the Liberal Party of Canada was in 2006; their leadership is disgraced, their party has lost a lot of its workers and money, and they have no message beyond “Vote for us or you’re bad.” Like the Liberals in 2006, they have not really learned their lesson yet, and are probably scheduled for another ass-kicking. Like the Liberals, their second ass kicking will very likely be more painful than the first. However, they pretty much HAVE to fix it, because politics is Darwinian. If they put some fundamentalist clown like Mike Huckabee up against Obama in 2012 and get stomped, the mucky-mucks who supported the clown will see thier positions in the GOP drop while reform-minded GOP members will fill the gaps. If they’re beaten again in 2016 (and 2014, of course) the fundie clown supporters will be actively losing their jobs, while new, younger GOPers will be scrambling to grab the newly available power positions. You can’t stay in politics for long if you keep losing, so if the Republicans keep losing, you’ll see different Republicans. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/15 "2008-11-23T17:44:20Z")
What makes anyone think the Pubs **can** block Obama’s health plan? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/16 "2008-11-23T18:10:12Z")
> [@cckerberos](#): > > …irregardless of the results. Please do not do that again. Please. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/17 "2008-11-23T18:27:35Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Please do not do that again. Please. All right, so **you** give us a proper use of the word “irregardless” in a sentence. ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/18 "2008-11-23T18:51:34Z")
[Here.](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/irregardless) > [@](#): > > Irregardless originated in dialectal American speech in the early 20th century. Its fairly widespread use in speech called it to the attention of usage commentators as early as 1927. The most frequently repeated remark about it is that “there is no such word.” There is such a word, however. It is still used primarily in speech, although it can be found from time to time in edited prose. Its reputation has not risen over the years, and it is still a long way from general acceptance. Use regardless instead. In the first sentence it is used properly. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/19 "2008-11-23T19:02:29Z")
If Obama’s plan is blocked by filibuster, that will only hurt the Republicans in the 2010 Senate elections, and the Republicans already have more seats up than the Democrats. Health care is going to happen along the lines of what Obama proposes in the next two years, or it is going to happen when the Dems have 62 Senate seats, with a more liberal plan. The public is ready for it. ---
**Author:** ![Lakai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9de0a6/32.png) [@Lakai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lakai)\ **Post date:** [November 23, 2008, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075/20 "2008-11-23T20:03:29Z")
> [@](#): > > Because the more socialism comes to be identified with real policies that raise the standard of living and improve the quality of life for the working class and the whole people, the more socialism will be looked at seriously. So now the GOP has to prevent the people from finding out how much GOP policies really suck? Obama’s Health plan is going to pass. He armed himself to the teeth with people who know Congress and health care. If the GOP tries to mount an opposition, Obama will destroy them in the public opinion game. He is a very effective communicator who has just gained a much bigger microphone. No way the GOP can overcome that. If Obama puts health care on the table first, while he still has a clean record in the White House (no mistakes to jump on), the GOP will have to bend to his will. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cato-institute-blocking-obama-s-health-plan-is-key-to-the-gop-s-survival/474075.md?page=2)