# Cats as expendable rodent management tools - Ethical or not? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 13, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453 "2003-04-13T16:21:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/1 "2003-04-13T16:21:54Z")
Per this thread people in Crafter\_Man’s neck of the woods use cats as a more or less expendable rodent management tools. A local natural predator (coyotes in this case) eat the weaker or sick cats on a regular basis and help keep the population in check. Is placing cats in a relatively free, but high mortality natural environment any less morally ethical than neutering them and confining them in a house? I’m not sure that it would be. > [@](#): > > \*\*Crafter Man - : Sorry, but I refuse to spend a dime on a vet for any reason. If they get sick they’ll probably become coyote food. And then we’ll have to get another cat. Remember, the folks around these parts use cats as tools, not pets… > > …Most get eaten by coyotes. I would estimate the average life expectancy for a cat is 3 years around here. Unlike the city, there’s no such thing as a cat overpopulation problem in the country…\*\* ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/2 "2003-04-13T16:26:32Z")
Well … apparently PIMF once again :o Per [this thread](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=176709&perpage=50&pagenumber=1) people in Crafter\_Man’s neck of the woods use cats as a more or less expendable rodent management tools ---
**Author:** ![BrotherCadfael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@BrotherCadfael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrotherCadfael)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/3 "2003-04-13T17:23:32Z")
Any farm has a more or less unknown number of barn cats roaming around. You put out food, and they earn their keep by keeping down the rodent population. You are friendly with them, but don’t get overly attached, because the population is always changing. Sort of a symbiotic relationship. ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/4 "2003-04-13T17:41:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by astro \* > \*\*Is placing cats in a relatively free, but high mortality natural environment any less morally ethical than neutering them and confining them in a house? I’m not sure that it would be. \*\* It’s my understanding that where cats are not indigenous they are very bad for the environment because they are such good killers. So I’d have to say that it isn’t more ethical, but not because of the cats’ welfare. I don’t think it’s cruel to the cats to have barn cats like on a farm. But on the other hand, I tend to think that as a destructive non-native species, any cat seen outside should be shot on sight. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/5 "2003-04-13T17:46:01Z")
The ethics demonstrated towards the tool suck, as do the ethics demonstrated towards the overall community, both human and animal. If you accept responsibility for a living creature, whether you’re using it as a tool or not–whether you’re harnessing that horse to a plow or simply allowing it to wander around your pasture and eat grass, or whether you’re using that cat for rodent control or simply allowing it to sleep on the living room sofa all day–you have an ethical obligation to give it the best treatment you can. Which includes not only decent food, clean water, and a sheltered place to sleep, but also all necessary medical care, including immunizations and visits from the vet or farrier when necessary. Also, someone who doesn’t see to it that the animals for whom he accepts responsibility receive proper immunizations is contributing to the overall animal disease problem in the community (rabies, distemper, parvo, feline leukemia, equine encephalitis, etc.). There are also infectious conditions like mange, ringworm, and various intestinal parasites that can be spread by animals who are allowed to run loose but who receive no veterinary care. I would wonder how his neighbors feel about his contributions towards maintaining the disease reservoirs in his community. And if the monetary expense of the creature’s upkeep bothers him, then he shouldn’t accept responsibility for it in the first place. We’re familiar with barn cats. We don’t agree that it’s okay to let them run around unimmunized and unneutered, and to shrug it off by saying, “They earn their keep, and it’s a kind of symbiosis, and anyway the coyotes keep them in check.” If you feed them, they’re yours, and you look after them the same way you’d look after any other pet or farm animal, whether it was earning its keep or not. If a friend of yours “didn’t have room” for that potbellied pig anymore, or that elderly pony, and you said you’d take it, you’d see to it that it had its shots, and so should the barn cats. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/6 "2003-04-13T17:48:54Z")
The species human did not invent the species kittycat. It is cruel and unethical to mistreat cats (or other animals) by subjecting them to pains and gross indignities (on which I shall not elaborate at this point–the specifics thereof are debatable). It is _not_ cruel and unethical to “neglect” cats as if the only valid relationship a human can have with a cat is one in which the cat is treated as a pampered pet. With a disclaimer or two, I suppose: I don’t think it would be appropriate to deliberately breed cats so as to put them in a barn to kill rodents until killed by coyotes, but most barncats I’ve met take care of their own breeding and work out arrangements with human barnowners in which food is exchanged for rodent-killing services. And I don’t think it would be appropriate to stop feeding the cats one day (including giving up the farm and moving away)–as with any good employee, the cats deserve a severance package. Arrangements should be made. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/7 "2003-04-13T17:56:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AHunter3 \* > **The species human did not invent the species kittycat.** Invent? No. Meddle with? Absolutely. Breed, distort, and enable the explosion of? You bet humans did. Julie ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/8 "2003-04-13T18:02:00Z")
Hmmmmm… I would say that If C\_M would at least get them rabies shots (if needed for his area), either fix them or be responsible to their kittens as well as to the cats (his choice), provide a relativally safe environment (meaning safer then they would find on their own, Have some sort of shelter for them (could be a crate as long as water proof and the cats have a small area to keep warm and dry when needed, and at the very least put them down quickly if very sick/injured, provide food and water then his use would be as a rodent control ‘device’ and even thought I’m not personally happy about it could accept it. These I think are basic rules for any ‘work’ animals (medical, shelter, protection needed fore the animal). If he is using them for coyte bait then I would say you can skip the vet (unless you don’t want to risk infecting the coytes), and the requirement of a relativly safe enviroment. The other requirements you would want to have anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/9 "2003-04-13T18:07:53Z")
> [@](#): > > It is cruel and unethical to mistreat cats (or other animals) by subjecting them to pains and gross indignities Am I reading you correctly here? You’re saying that you don’t think any domestic animals, anywhere, should ever be spayed or castrated, or should be stuck with hypodermic needles to receive immunizations, or should be forced to swallow bad-tasting medicine, or should have Elizabethan collars put around their necks to stop them from pulling bandages off themselves? You would advocate a complete hands-off _laissez faire_ policy towards all domestic animals, everywhere, at all times? Are you a vegan, or a member of PETA? Do you have any pets? Just curious. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/10 "2003-04-13T18:16:35Z")
My dog gets a heartworm test every year in the spring, before the mosquitos that carry them hatch out. This entails drawing blood from a vein in her leg. It hurts. I know this because I’ve had blood drawn myself, over the years. She whines in my arms as the vet tech draws the blood. None of us is happy about it, and we’re glad when it’s over. If she doesn’t have the blood test, to make sure she doesn’t already have the heartworm parasites in her bloodstream, then when I give her the summer’s first heartworm pill, she could possibly die of a reaction to the medication. But if she doesn’t get the heartworm pills, she’ll die of heartworms. It’s a tradeoff–one needle stick, every spring, to keep her alive. I think it’s worth it. Dunno how she feels, but I think she’d probably prefer being alive to keeling over dead one day because her heart valves are clogged with little white worms. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/11 "2003-04-13T18:29:58Z")
I doubt the concept of dying of heartworms, or of heart valves. means squat to her. You’re imposing your values on her, and callling them hers. She’s pissed when she gets stuck with the needles, and this is your rationalization for subject her to the that. ---
**Author:** ![robertliguori](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@robertliguori](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robertliguori)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/12 "2003-04-13T19:48:33Z")
> [@](#): > > She’s pissed when she gets stuck with the needles, and this is your rationalization for subject her to the that. Yeah. And I’d say that _saving the dog’s life_ is an adequate justification. She’s allowed to make decisions for it. It’s her dog. If you would like to disagree about the right of animal ownership, than your intestinal bacteria would doubtless like a word with you. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/13 "2003-04-13T20:07:41Z")
Well, I know she would definitely prefer to be running around wild, chasing rabbits, making do with carrion when rabbits were not available, taking her chances in the food chain, running the risk of being eaten by coyotes herself or dying of distemper or rabies. It just sucks to be her, I guess, that I picked her out down at the animal shelter and am currently imposing my values (health, safety, discipline, schedules) on her. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/14 "2003-04-13T20:32:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by pseudotriton ruber ruber \* > \*\*She’s pissed when she gets stuck with the needles, and this is your rationalization for subject her to the that. \*\* Most animals of my acquaintance do not appear to blame their persons for things like being stuck with a needle. We had a cat whom we gave shots to twice a day for diabetes. He didn’t even flinch. He presented himself at shot time. He didn’t let us forget. Obviously, he didn’t view the shot as a form of kitty torture. Julie ---
**Author:** ![js\_africanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/87869e/32.png) [@js\_africanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/js_africanus)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/15 "2003-04-13T20:44:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jsgoddess \* > \*\*Breed, distort, and enable the explosion of? \*\* Where can I get an exploding cat?! ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/16 "2003-04-13T21:17:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by js\_africanus \* > \*\*Where can I get an exploding cat?! \*\* Feed them beans? Julie ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/17 "2003-04-13T21:59:31Z")
I wrote: > [@](#): > > It is cruel and unethical to mistreat cats (or other animals) by subjecting them to pains and gross indignities (on which I shall not elaborate at this point–the specifics thereof are debatable) **Duck Duck Goose** wrote: > [@](#): > > Am I reading you correctly here? You’re saying that you don’t think any domestic animals, anywhere, should ever be spayed or castrated, or should be stuck with hypodermic needles to receive immunizations, or should be forced to swallow bad-tasting medicine, or should have Elizabethan collars put around their necks to stop them from pulling bandages off themselves? > > You would advocate a complete hands-off laissez faire policy towards all domestic animals, everywhere, at all times? > > Are you a vegan, or a member of PETA? Do you have any pets? Just curious. What part of “the specifics are debatable” did you find difficult to understand? I’m certainly not on record as having said any of the things you apparently read into my post. For the sake of addressing your curiosity, I’m not sure where I draw the line, but I’m pretty sure immunizations are on the “ethical” side and declawing isn’t; and yet I, not being the final arbiter of such things, do not seek an argument on the location of the beforementioned line. I have and have had pets, and have on occasions had them sterilized without being spayed or neutered, and might do so again. I am not a member of PETA, I’m omnivorous and love a good barbecue dinner, I own a leather coat and fur-lined gloves. I have called the police on neighbors who left their dogs out in the icy cold of a winter storm, barking and without human company for hours and hours. Hope this makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![elfbabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b782af/32.png) [@elfbabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfbabe)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/18 "2003-04-13T22:58:48Z")
Our neighbors leave out food for the feral cats in the area, and have constructed a shelter for them, using a lightbulb to provide heat. However, to my knowledge, they have nothing else to do with the feral cat population. This bugs the hell out of me - it means that the population goes beyond what can naturally be supported in the area, they kill songbirds, and worst of all, it means that each of the cats is a furry little disease transmitter. IMO, if you support your area’s cats, you are obligated to do SOME looking after them - primarily because untreated diseases in “your” cats could hurt other people’s pets. Otherwise, they’re free to leave whenever they wish. They still have their claws, their hunting skills are still good, and if some aspect of the agreement isn’t to their liking, you’re not preventing them from leaving. ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2003, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/19 "2003-04-13T23:19:41Z")
Sorry if I seemed to misinterpret, AHunter, but you made a hugely broad statement–"_It is cruel and unethical to mistreat cats (or other animals) by subjecting them to pains and gross indignities"_–and I was just trying to clarify where you’re coming from. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2003, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453/20 "2003-04-14T00:04:31Z")
Well, I asked my cat, the revered goddess known throughout the lands as She Who Holdeth Aloft the Noble Kitty Tail, and she told me to take dictation 😉 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cats-as-expendable-rodent-management-tools-ethical-or-not/168453.md?page=2)