# Catsix, STFU! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 16, 2007, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366 "2007-04-16T18:08:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/201 "2007-04-17T14:08:24Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] What the fuck do you need to carry a gun for anyway? Are you really that much of a spineless chickenshit that you think you have to be armed all the time? I’m not anti-gun but I wish you fetishists would be honest enough to admit that you carry guns mostly to make yourself feel powerful, not for protection. There are actually more healthy ways to combat those intense feelings of inadequacy if you’re willing to seek them out. [/QUOTE] You know **Diogenes** , I generally like reading your posts, but this one looks like the circus petting donkey just kicked you in the bollocks and you posted while writhing on the floor. Know this, I carry a gun for protection. Nothing more, nothing less. I would prefer not to pack heat, as the responsibility is a fucking pain in the butt…literally and figuratively. But it is the price I pay to level the playing fields in this angry, crime ridden country. My work space is a secure area, and a gun free zone. I lock my weapon in a gun safe at reception on arrival, and I move around unarmed, as my employer has undertaken to carry the responsibility for my safety. But once I step off these premises, I’m on my own and I don’t expect, not can I even begin to depend on, anyone else to look after me. We have a fundamental right, and responsibility, to protect ourselves. If you (general you) want to assume the responsibility for my safety, and take my gun away, fine, but best you make sure I’m adequately protected while I’m under your care, because I’m going to be on your arse when things go south. It’s got fuckall to do with inadequacy, and I’m surprised that a poster of your calibre would even stoop to such an insult. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/202 "2007-04-17T14:22:29Z")
[QUOTE=Mellivora capensis] You know **Diogenes** , I generally like reading your posts, but this one looks like the circus petting donkey just kicked you in the bollocks and you posted while writhing on the floor. Know this, I carry a gun for protection. Nothing more, nothing less. I would prefer not to pack heat, as the responsibility is a fucking pain in the butt…literally and figuratively. But it is the price I pay to level the playing fields in this angry, crime ridden country. My work space is a secure area, and a gun free zone. I lock my weapon in a gun safe at reception on arrival, and I move around unarmed, as my employer has undertaken to carry the responsibility for my safety. But once I step off these premises, I’m on my own and I don’t expect, not can I even begin to depend on, anyone else to look after me. We have a fundamental right, and responsibility, to protect ourselves. If you (general you) want to assume the responsibility for my safety, and take my gun away, fine, but best you make sure I’m adequately protected while I’m under your care, because I’m going to be on your arse when things go south. It’s got fuckall to do with inadequacy, and I’m surprised that a poster of your calibre would even stoop to such an insult. [/QUOTE] I don’t want to take your gun away. I just don’t buy that most people really carry them sincerely because they fear being attacked. I think people most people who carry do it because they just get off on the feeling it gives them. I guarantee there’s not a single place that you or **Catsix** or **Airman** ever go strapped that I would be afraid to go unarmed. Am I that much braver than you? Why don’t you guys just admit you carry guns because you get off on it, not because you really need protection. I’d respect that a lot more. I know how it feels to carry a gun. It’s a good feeling. I’m willing to admit it. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/203 "2007-04-17T14:40:31Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I don’t want to take your gun away. I just don’t buy that most people really carry them sincerely because they fear being attacked. I think people most people who carry do it because they just get off on the feeling it gives them. I guarantee there’s not a single place that you or **Catsix** or **Airman** ever go strapped that I would be afraid to go unarmed. Am I that much braver than you? Why don’t you guys just admit you carry guns because you get off on it, not because you really need protection. I’d respect that a lot more. I know how it feels to carry a gun. It’s a good feeling. I’m willing to admit it. [/QUOTE] You are looking for an admission from me which you are not going to get. It might feel good for you, it doesn’t for me, and I speak not only as a civilian, but as an ex-cop and ex-soldier. Yes, there was a fascination with guns when I was a teenager, but that ended when I killed my last rabbit at 13. I realized then that they are killing tools, and I don’t like killing. But I will kill if it is the only way of stopping someone killing me, or a loved one. I nearly lost my life when I was hijacked in 1998. I was shot at point blank, but the fucker somehow missed. My various homes over the years have been violated too many times to mention. I can give you a two page list of acquaintances, friends and colleagues who have been victims of some form of violent crime. Over the last 4 months, there have been 3 rapes and a number of what you call “home invasions” in my girlfriend’s suburb, all within an easy nine-iron from her home. She lives in terror every fucking night. Your reality is not my reality, **Diogenes**. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/204 "2007-04-17T14:45:42Z")
[QUOTE=Mellivora capensis] You are looking for an admission from me which you are not going to get. It might feel good for you, it doesn’t for me, and I speak not only as a civilian, but as an ex-cop and ex-soldier. Yes, there was a fascination with guns when I was a teenager, but that ended when I killed my last rabbit at 13. I realized then that they are killing tools, and I don’t like killing. But I will kill if it is the only way of stopping someone killing me, or a loved one. I nearly lost my life when I was hijacked in 1998. I was shot at point blank, but the fucker somehow missed. My various homes over the years have been violated too many times to mention. I can give you a two page list of acquaintances, friends and colleagues who have been victims of some form of violent crime. Over the last 4 months, there have been 3 rapes and a number of what you call “home invasions” in my girlfriend’s suburb, all within an easy nine-iron from her home. She lives in terror every fucking night. Your reality is not my reality, **Diogenes**. [/QUOTE] I should have looked at your location before I spoke. I exlude you from the path of my big ass broom. I will say that there are a lot of _Americans_ who are disingenuous about why they carry guns. ---
**Author:** ![Mellivora\_capensis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mellivora\_capensis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mellivora_capensis)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/205 "2007-04-17T14:52:04Z")
[QUOTE=Diogenes the Cynic] I should have looked at your location before I spoke. I exlude you from the path of my big ass broom. I will say that there are a lot of _Americans_ who are disingenuous about why they carry guns. [/QUOTE] Roger that. ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/206 "2007-04-17T15:02:27Z")
What is the point of this thread. The **first** news report I read online ended with some NRA spokesperson saying exactly the same thing - “if only there had been more guns on campus.” I was going to start a thread called “Give Me Lemons I’ll Make You Lemonade,” because I thought, “there is someone going that extra dehumanising mile to earn a dollar,” in an admiring way. The only difference is that **catsix** is doing it for free. But it’s your culture guys. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/207 "2007-04-17T15:04:40Z")
> [@](#): > > **Diogenes the Cynic** said: > He was Korean and yes, he did buy the guns legally. He had the receipts in his backpack. It’s a shame that this will be used to further restrict the rights of all gun owners, but that’s how it always is. This guy bought a Glock and used it to kill people, so that means the rest of us should be presumed guilty and denied firearms. What he did is horrible and tragic, but it’s not the gun’s fault. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/208 "2007-04-17T15:05:00Z")
So if I hear shots and pull out my weapon and run down the hall and through a door and see/hear six people with guns shooting and two people with guns down and there’s lots of blood and screaming, whatever decision I make in the next two seconds is the correct one? And each one of the six armed people still standing is going to be right too? And when the cops get there and we’re all divided up into the guys who know I’m a good guy vs. the guys who know Stewart over there is a good guy (_DAMN!_ Stewie just went down! Oops!), they won’t assume _only_ uniformed cops are the good guys and just, well, you know?\* And things will be better because _one_ person shooting randomly or purposefully is _much_ more dangerous than _many_ people shooting out of sheer panic? And the sheer coolly calculated risk of _one_ potentially unbalanced or angry individual bringing a gun on campus is so great that we must vastly _increase_ the number of potentially angry or unbalanced individuals\*\* bringing guns on campus? Okay. I’ve noticed that the incidence of delusions of heroism is much greater than actual occurrences of heroism. Which is good, I guess. We all need to dream. But we probably shouldn’t do it while handling a loaded gun. The majority of gun violence is not caused by the obviously crazy guy who wants to kill everybody, it’s caused by the the momentarily angry or frightened guy who happens to have a gun. More guns in more hands, no matter the justification, tends to increase the death rate. It’s probably too soon to say this, but even _if_ (and man, does this ever need a lot of proving that it’s never going to get) you could statistically show that, say, in instances like this, armed bystanders would kill the bad guy after s/he killed no more than ten people and then went on to kill no more than seventeen of each other, with subsequent accidental police-civilian killings averaging around four or so, it _still_ wouldn’t prove that more armed people on a college campus was a good idea, or even a non-sub-moronic idea. For the record: I can’t support severe gun control because I do not believe the second amendment can be vitiated without damaging other parts of the bill of rights I view as absolutely essential. Yes, I’m willing to tolerate a few thousand needless deaths for the sake of the Constitution. And I admit I have a grudging respect for second amendment fundamentalists: at least they have the sand to never (so far as I can see) _restrict_ the right they claim to protect to people like themselves (unlike, say, some self-proclaimed defenders of freedom of speech or religion). But to defend arming a largely self-selected group of private citizens as a practical matter is just plain idiotic. How many more guns, for example, would be necessary to be certain that a couple of them ended up in the right hands in the right classroom or dormroom at Virginia Tech? Do the math. After that, do more math: multiply the number of gun thefts and gun crimes and accidents and suicides and homicides and see if the number is more or less than, oh, 35, spread out over several years. \*Ask the professional cops of New York and Los Angeles first, and then look at the record, then ask a sampling of average campus and college town cops. \*\*If you think you’re not a member of this group, you’re not self-aware enough to be trusted with an orange, much less a gun, much less a concealed gun, much less a concealed weapon on a college campus. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/209 "2007-04-17T15:07:00Z")
> [@](#): > > **don’t ask** said: > The first news report I read online ended with some NRA spokesperson saying exactly the same thing - “if only there had been more guns on campus.” I was going to start a thread called “Give Me Lemons I’ll Make You Lemonade,” because I thought, “there is someone going that extra dehumanising mile to earn a dollar,” in an admiring way. The only difference is that catsix is doing it for free. Really? The first news report I read blamed Congress for ‘failing’ to renew the ‘assault weapons ban’. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/210 "2007-04-17T15:10:51Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] Really? The first news report I read blamed Congress for ‘failing’ to renew the ‘assault weapons ban’. [/QUOTE] Both sides were putting out their bullshit almost immediately in the media. You were the first one to insert a selfish political agenda into that Dope thread, though. ---
**Author:** ![flight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbce88/32.png) [@flight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flight)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/211 "2007-04-17T15:13:39Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] It seems that in a lot of places the self-defense advice they give out is to not resist, to not fight back, to just go along with it and hope you don’t die. They’re just doing as they’ve been taught, really. You can’t blame people for not fighting back when they’ve been taught all their lives that it’s better to just be passive and not resist. [/QUOTE] If you follow that advice than you will be more likely to survive. By actively resisting you decrease your likelihood of survival but increase everyone else’s. That is a choice each individual needs to make for themselves… and in an instant under extreme pressure. No one can be blamed for choosing either option whatever they have been told. Also, **Crafter Man** , there is a reasonable chance that some did try to resist and were killed for it. If the perpetrator was calm and rational they would be hard pressed to take him down unless several people fought back at once. Even with a gun it would be hard to stop five people coming at you. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/212 "2007-04-17T15:15:44Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] It’s a shame that this will be used to further restrict the rights of all gun owners, but that’s how it always is. This guy bought a Glock and used it to kill people, so that means the rest of us should be presumed guilty and denied firearms. What he did is horrible and tragic, but it’s not the gun’s fault. [/QUOTE] I never said it was the gun’s fault, nor do I think the incident should be used to restrict gun rights (and I don’t think it will be unless maybe Giuliani gets elected). I was just providing the info because it was info. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/213 "2007-04-17T15:18:31Z")
[QUOTE=The King of Soup] So if I hear shots and pull out my weapon and run down the hall and through a door and see/hear six people with guns shooting and two people with guns down and there’s lots of blood and screaming, whatever decision I make in the next two seconds is the correct one? And each one of the six armed people still standing is going to be right too? [/QUOTE] I envision something like the final scene of _Reservoir Dogs_, but with several dozen additional participants, and without the kitsch appeal of a hip 70’s soundtrack. ---
**Author:** ![catsix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e19b73/32.png) [@catsix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/catsix)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/214 "2007-04-17T15:21:15Z")
> [@](#): > > **The King of Soup** said: > The majority of gun violence is not caused by the obviously crazy guy who wants to kill everybody, it’s caused by the the momentarily angry or frightened guy who happens to have a gun. More guns in more hands, no matter the justification, tends to increase the death rate. You can back this claim up with some proof, right? > [@](#): > > And the sheer coolly calculated risk of one potentially unbalanced or angry individual bringing a gun on campus is so great that we must vastly increase the number of potentially angry or unbalanced individuals\*\* Gun owners get angry just like anyone else. I certainly have. What I’ve never done is consider shooting someone out of anger. I had my carry gun when I went to Pitt as a normal, average college student with a normal, average college student life, including stress over relationships and grades and everything else. I didn’t kill anybody. Why is a college student with a gun automatically dangerous? > [@](#): > > **Diogenes the Cynic** said: > > Both sides were putting out their bullshit almost immediately in the media. You were the first one to insert a selfish political agenda into that Dope thread, though. Somebody was going to be first. Don’t piss your pretty pink panties because it was me. > [@](#): > > **flight** said: > If you follow that advice than you will be more likely to survive. By actively resisting you decrease your likelihood of survival but increase everyone else’s. That is a choice each individual needs to make for themselves… and in an instant under extreme pressure. No one can be blamed for choosing either option whatever they have been told. I’ve chosen to defend myself three times in the past. Once, outnumbered and drunk, I failed. The other two times I was extremely successful. I wasn’t taught to be passive and comply. I was taught that if someone’s got a weapon and they’re attacking you, you are **already dead** , and that if you die defending yourself, you have lost nothing. Maybe the guy would get me first and I’d be dead before I could do anything, or maybe his head would be turned the other way and I’d have a chance to draw and fire before he saw anything. I’d rather have that chance than none at all. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/215 "2007-04-17T16:03:03Z")
The last campus shooting incident in Va was stopped by two people who had guns with them. Both were ex-cops. Second: So he had receipts. Was he allowed to purchase them legally, or did he violate gun laws, being a resident alien? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/216 "2007-04-17T16:20:32Z")
Resident aliens can purchase in VA legally. Or certainly permanent resident aliens. ---
**Author:** ![Spiral\_Stairs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/50afbb/32.png) [@Spiral\_Stairs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiral_Stairs)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/217 "2007-04-17T16:26:21Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] It’s a shame that this will be used to further restrict the rights of all gun owners, but that’s how it always is. This guy bought a Glock and used it to kill people, so that means the rest of us should be presumed guilty and denied firearms. What he did is horrible and tragic, but it’s not the gun’s fault. [/QUOTE] It’s also a shame that the demonstrations of the awesome destructive power of nuclear weapons at Hiroshima and Nagasaki have been used to restrict my right to own and possess nuclear arms. Why should I be presumed guilty before I’ve even _used_ my nuclear weapon? The devastation in Japan in 1945 was not the fault of the bombs, after all. Give me a break. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/218 "2007-04-17T16:30:49Z")
> [@Catsix](#): > > Don’t piss your pretty pink panties because it was me. This is stupid on so many levels. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/219 "2007-04-17T16:59:13Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] This is stupid on so many levels. [/QUOTE] Stupid with a gun! ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366/220 "2007-04-17T17:08:05Z")
[QUOTE=catsix] You can back this claim up with some proof, right? Oh, [sure.](http://www.nber.org/digest/feb01/w7967.html) Just like, someday, maybe, you’ll come up with some proof that armed civilians prevent crime faster than accidents and anger and the 340,000 legitimate guns that are stolen every year enable those crimes. Or, not, depending on your personal ratio of stupidity-to-hypocrisy. So far as I can tell, right now you’re running about even. [QUOTE=catsix] Gun owners get angry just like anyone else. I certainly have. What I’ve never done is consider shooting someone out of anger. Lovely. What a wonderful set of people self-described gun-carriers are. They never get mad at anything. Except, maybe, pseudonymous internet message boards. Other than that, or something else that sets them off. [QUOTE=catsix] I had my carry gun when I went to Pitt as a normal, average college student…[/=quote] I think maybe then you were not quite normal and average on the Pitt campus… [QUOTE=catsix] …with a normal, average college student life, including stress over relationships and grades and everything else. I didn’t kill anybody. Why is a college student with a gun automatically dangerous? [/QUOTE] They’re not, potato-head. Neither is the psycho kid who brings a gun to campus in order to shoot a bunch of people. Sometimes people are dangerous for invisible reasons, or in ways that don’t seem obvious to a bunch of 20-year-old kids. [QUOTE=catsix] …I’ve chosen to defend myself three times in the past. Once, outnumbered and drunk, I failed. The other two times I was extremely successful. I wasn’t taught to be passive and comply. I was taught that if someone’s got a weapon and they’re attacking you, you are **already dead** , and that if you die defending yourself, you have lost nothing. [/QUOTE] _You_ haven’t, maybe, but the innocent bystanders you’re drunkenly (or just drunkenly and ignorantly) defending, might _really_ wish you’d put your inalienable rights back in your pocket for a while. [QUOTE=catsix] …maybe his head would be turned the other way and I’d have a chance to draw and fire before he saw anything. I’d rather have that chance than none at all. [/QUOTE] And maybe your self-diagnosed chances don’t trump the right of others to survive the situation. Even if some belated scenario pays out in favor of individual heroism, there ain’t no algorithm proving _you’re_ the hero. Meanwhile, since we’re being all formal about evidence, where’s the [[http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/hypocrisy](http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/hypocrisy)]cite that shows armed citizens beat determined criminals a particular percentage of the time? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/catsix-stfu/400366.md?page=12)