# Cavalry atrocities against Indians **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 23, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461 "2010-05-23T15:30:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/1 "2010-05-23T15:30:46Z")
I first ran across this accusation on a history channel documentary (see quote below). They simply stated it happened after a major battle. I find this very, very hard to believe. Sure, there was brutality on both sides. The Indians believed a killed foe could come after them in the after life. Mutilating the body (gouging out eyes, dismembering limbs) ensured the foe would be harmless in the afterlife. Nearly all Custer’s men were mutilated. I’m sure a few white Europeans collected Indian scalps. Things like that happen in war. But, carving out a dead woman’s vagina? Even the Nazi SS aren’t accused of anything like that. Cecil did a column on the human lampshade myth. At most, there might have been one made at a concentration camp. Cecil felt it probably was a myth. The Nazis murdered a lot of people, but they didn’t routinely skin their victims. > **[Did the Nazis make lampshades out of human skin?](https://www.straightdope.com/21343637/did-the-nazis-make-lampshades-out-of-human-skin)** Has there been any attempt to verify this story about vagina’s stretched over saddle horns and scrotum coin purses? Any families find an old wrinkly coin purse in great-granddads personal effects? To accuse an American Military unit of something like this requires some kind of proof. A lot of brave men served and died honorably. The cavalry was one of the first military units that allowed Blacks. Blacks today are very proud of the Buffalo Soldiers. I heard this story on a History Channel Documentary. Here’s another online source. > [@](#): > > His cavalry murdered, pillaged and raped their way across Indian country in the late 1800s while he sat in the saddle and orchestrated the entire scene. His troopers made coin purses from the scrotums of Indian men and ornaments for their saddle horns out of the vaginas of Indian women. It doesn’t get more grotesque than that. > **[Taking McDonald's to the Woodshed](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/taking-mcdonalds-to-the-w_b_221991)** > > Taking McDonald's to the Woodshed ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/2 "2010-05-23T15:38:09Z")
uh, that should be Calvary atrocities against Indians damn Firefox spell check doesn’t work in the subject box. It only works in the message box. Mod can you please fix the post title? Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/3 "2010-05-23T15:41:29Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > uh, that should be Calvary atrocities against Indians Wait… [What did Jesus do to the Indians](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calvary)? > [@](#): > > _Not to be confused with [cavalry](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cavalry) (horse or armoured troops)._ 😉 . ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/4 "2010-05-23T15:44:36Z")
Which, this being The Dope, will quickly devolve into anti-christian screeds on how religion is the worst thing man has ever invented. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/5 "2010-05-23T15:45:11Z")
Just not my day is it? 😉 I did spell cavalry right in the message. It’s not a word I use very often. ---
**Author:** ![chacoguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/50afbb/32.png) [@chacoguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chacoguy)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/6 "2010-05-23T16:15:54Z")
Here’s the Wiki on the [Sand Creek Massacre](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre). The cites are contained within. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/7 "2010-05-23T16:33:33Z")
I guess that battle hearkened back to more brutal battles of history. You read that the Barbarians sacked and pillaged Europe. Or Genghis Khan conquering vast lands. It’s easy to forget the human depravity that can be unleashed by undisciplined troops. Mass murders, rapes, and other atrocities used to be the spoils of war. Once in awhile it still happens if the military commanders allow it. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/8 "2010-05-23T17:43:57Z")
So did they crucify the Indians or not?! ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/9 "2010-05-23T18:12:15Z")
You need to read [Bury My Heart at Wounded Knee](http://www.amazon.com/Bury-My-Heart-Wounded-Knee/dp/0805066691), by Dee Brown. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2010, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/10 "2010-05-23T19:34:16Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Sure, there was brutality on both sides. The Indians believed a killed foe could come after them in the after life. Mutilating the body (gouging out eyes, dismembering limbs) ensured the foe would be harmless in the afterlife. Is there a cite for this belief? Which Indians held it? How would that justify cutting off genitalia, or cutting fetuses from wombs? (Both of which acts were sometimes carried out by Indian attackers.) Frankly, I suspect there’s a lot of _post hoc_ rationalization going on for atrocities committed by the Indians. There were atrocities committed on both sides, and there’s no good excuse for either in my view. Atrocious behavior is atrocious behavior, whether or not it is covered in some gossamer veil of religion. (Note: the foregoing is not intended to be hostile to the OP – just hostile to the idea that religion can justify atrocity.) ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/11 "2010-05-24T00:25:18Z")
There’s a couple of History Channel specials on Custers Last Stand. They know the bodies were dismembered because some were reburied a few decades ago. The bones showed a lot of blunt force trauma from hacking. There’s also eyewitness accounts from soldiers that originally buried the remains. One of the Indian experts provided the theory that Indians thought they would have to fight their kill victims in the after life. If the victim’s body was dismembered then it would be like that in the after life. I’m not an expert, and am only reporting what was stated in one of the specials. I was fascinated by the special that traced the battle from ballistics. Archeologists found a bunch of bullets in the dirt. They mapped the location of each bullet with GPS. Then with ballistics they could trace each guns use during the battle. Some of those guns were at multiple places. Meaning the Indian owner engaged in multiple skirmishes throughout the day. They also found the cavalry lines. The places where troopers dismounted, knelt in rows and fired. Some of those locations had hundreds of spent casings. The troops were so shook up that they had abandoned any disciplined fire. They were firing as fast as possible in all directions. Great special. I’d like to see that one again. ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 10:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/12 "2010-05-24T10:27:15Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > damn Firefox spell check doesn’t work in the subject box. It only works in the message box. By default, it only works in multi-line text boxes (not single-line ones like the subject box). To change that so it works in single-line text boxes, too: Type about:config in your Firefox address bar and press Enter. Type layout.spell in filter text box, so it finds that option. Change the value to 2. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/13 "2010-05-24T12:05:20Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > So did they crucify the Indians or not?! [Well…](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0806121297/peaceparty09)😉 ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/14 "2010-05-24T12:42:52Z")
Thanks t-bonham! 🙂 > [@t-bonham@scc.net](#): > > By default, it only works in multi-line text boxes (not single-line ones like the subject box). > > To change that so it works in single-line text boxes, too: > > Type about:config in your Firefox address bar and press Enter. > Type layout.spell in filter text box, so it finds that option. > Change the value to 2. ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/15 "2010-05-24T14:10:17Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Thanks t-bonham! 🙂 An addition to what he told you. Even if you get the settings right, they wouldn’t have helped in this case, since the correct spelling, “cavalry”, and the incorrect spelling, “calvary”, are both real words, and would pass a spell check. Spell check only helps if your typo/misspelling converts a real word into a non-real (i.e. not in the spell check word-list) word. Regarding your other post: > [@](#): > > **aceplace57:** I was fascinated by the special that traced the battle from ballistics. Archeologists found a bunch of bullets in the dirt. They mapped the location of each bullet with GPS. Then with ballistics they could trace each guns use during the battle. Some of those guns were at multiple places. Meaning the Indian owner engaged in multiple skirmishes throughout the day. I’ve always wanted to do something like that on an old battlefield. Take my metal detector & GPS and map out all the concentrations of metal I find (not digging them up, just locating them) to see if the resulting map tells you anything the historians don’t already know. Do you happen to know of a written piece on the web about what was in the documentary? ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/16 "2010-05-24T14:18:57Z")
> [@chacoguy](#): > > Here’s the Wiki on the [Sand Creek Massacre](http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre). The cites are contained within. A quotation from a 1974 book doesn’t really prove that someone’s scrotum was used as a tobacco pouch in 1864, does it? ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/17 "2010-05-24T14:27:58Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > A quotation from a 1974 book doesn’t really prove that someone’s scrotum was used as a tobacco pouch in 1864, does it? Read more thoroughly. There are primary sources for atrocities in [the Wiki article](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sand_Creek_massacre#cite_note-hoig_book-17). ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/18 "2010-05-24T14:41:34Z")
From the linked Wiki article: > [@](#): > > Statements taken by Major Edward W. Wynkoop and his adjutant substantiated the later accounts of survivors. These statements were filed with his reports and can be found in the Official Records of the War of the Rebellion, copies of which were submitted as evidence in the Joint Committee of the Conduct of the War and in separate hearings conducted by the military in Denver. Lieutenant James D. Cannon describes the mutilation of human genitalia by the soldiers, “men, women, and children’s privates cut out. I heard one man say that he had cut a woman’s private parts out and had them for exhibition on a stick. I heard of one instance of a child, a few months old, being thrown into the feed-box of a wagon, and after being carried some distance, left on the ground to perish; I also heard of numerous instances in which men had cut out the private parts of females and stretched them over their saddle-bows, and some of them over their hats”[27]. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/19 "2010-05-24T17:02:29Z")
Gary Jennings’s 1980 novel _Aztec_ is, I’ve read, very well-regarded for the extensive research he did before writing it. I remember in the book that some Spanish conquistadors cut out the genitalia of Aztec women with whom they’d slept but who they thought were scheming to murder them, and stretched it around the base of their helmets, with the clitoris as a “button” at the front. :: shudder :: ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cavalry-atrocities-against-indians/540461/20 "2010-05-24T19:54:20Z")
I’m pretty sure this is the book the documentary was based on. The reviewer mentions the same ballistics procedure. I plan to order the book to. 😉 Used they are ten bucks. > **[Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle: The Little Big Horn Re-examined:...](https://www.amazon.com/Archaeology-History-Custers-Last-Battle/dp/0806129980)** > > Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle: The Little Big Horn Re-examined \[Richard Allan Fox Jr.\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Archaeology, History, and Custer's Last Battle: The Little Big Horn Re-examined > [@](#): > > In a nutshell, Fox’s thesis is that there WAS no last stand. He took advantage of the burndown that occured some years back to get in there with metal detectors. He undertook a minute forensic examination of the battlefield. For Fox, the evidence seemed to suggest a rout. Were there to have been a last stand, one would have expected multiple shell casings from a given gun in a given firing position. In fact, he could find no evidence of this. What he did find was shell casings from the same gun in positions that suggested the individual firing the gun was “vectoring” – i.e. constantly on the move. The image is of a group of men running, stopping briefly to fire over their shoulders, and then moving on. This is but one of dozens of examples he gives > [@Cheshire\_Human](#): > > Regarding your other post: > I’ve always wanted to do something like that on an old battlefield. Take my metal detector & GPS and map out all the concentrations of metal I find (not digging them up, just locating them) to see if the resulting map tells you anything the historians don’t already know. Do you happen to know of a written piece on the web about what was in the documentary?