# Cave tour and Human Bones **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 24, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645 "2009-03-24T21:15:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HawksPath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f07891/32.png) [@HawksPath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HawksPath)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/1 "2009-03-24T21:15:18Z")
My girlfriend and I went to do the “adventure tour” of Moaning Caverns, a cave in Northern California. Now the tour was really cool and was much more adventurous than we expected. We crawled and wiggled through extremely tight places that until I was in them seemed to go nowhere. Overall it was a great experience, but not recommended for those with claustrophobia. Here’s the link: [http://www.caverntours.com/MoCavRt.htm](http://www.caverntours.com/MoCavRt.htm) At the top of the cave they had a gift shop and tiny museum. The first oddity is that they had a number of bones in display cases some of which were human and this included a mostly intact skull which they claimed was American Indian. During the adventure tour in the tight chambers we crawled through there were bone fragments in several places just sitting around. I even picked up some teeth that definitely looked human. There were about five of them near each other on a small rock ledge. This wasn’t on display but deep down in the caverns where the only light was from our helmets. The staff said that over a hundred human remains were found at the bottom of the cave and many were from native children who would play around the hole and fall the several hundred feet down the many chamber to the floor below. On a horror story note, the claim was that some survived the fall and spent days injured crawling chambers in complete darkness through the chambers in search for an escape. Now I am a bit skeptical of the story they’re telling. It seems extremely casual treatment of human remains and I know that American Indians are pretty serious about how remains of their distant ancestors are treated. If I had wanted I could have pocked the whole lot of teeth and no one would have known. Can any of you give me more factual information about this cave in particular? If not, what information about this kind of situation do you have. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/2 "2009-03-24T21:39:55Z")
I have a problem with this corporate statement: > [@](#): > > We are passionate about the properties in our care and strive to have as little environmental impact on them as possible while sharing them with the general public. We feel that these environments will be better protected when the public has firsthand experience and connection with them in a responsible way. To that end, we never allow people underground alone, always providing an accompanying, experienced guide as protector to the environment and information source to the visitor. Source: [Home - Cave and Mine Adventures](http://www.caverntours.com/AboutUs_philosophy.html) because of this: > [@](#): > > **Summary:** The California Native American Historical, Cultural and Sacred Sites Act applies to both state and private lands. **Upon discovery of human remains, the activity ceases and the county coroner is notified.** If the remains are of a Native American, the coroner notifies the Native American Heritage Commission (NAHC). NAHC then notifies those persons mostly likely to be descended from the Native American remains. The descendants may, with the permission of private landowners, inspect the site and recommend to the owner or the person responsible for the excavation means for treating or disposing of the remains and associated grave goods. The descendants must complete their inspection and make recommendations within 24 hours of their notification by the NAHC. The recommendation may include scientific removal and non-destructive analysis. When the NAHC is unable to identify a descendant or the identified descendant fails to make a recommendation, or the landowner objects to the descendants’ recommendations and mediation was unsuccessful, the landowner shall reinter the human remains and associated items with appropriate dignity. The Commission is directed to prepare an inventory of Native American sacred places on public lands. It is illegal for anyone to knowingly or willfully possess or obtain any Native American artifacts or human remains from a Native American grave or cairn after January 1, 1988. Any person who removes, without authority of law, Native American artifacts or human remains from a Native American grave or cairn with the intent to sell or dissect is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment in the state prison. > > **Jurisdiction:** Human remains and grave goods found on state and private lands. > **Statute of Limitations:** Not specified. > **Areas Covered Under Act:** All burials and associated remains located on state and private lands. Source: [http://www.arrowheads.com/burials.htm#CALIFORNIA](http://www.arrowheads.com/burials.htm#CALIFORNIA) It sounds like the cave owners are not practicing what they preach. ---
**Author:** ![liirogue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dbc845/32.png) [@liirogue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liirogue)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/3 "2009-03-24T23:17:37Z")
I would be really surprised if those are actual Native American remains. Maybe recreations or some bones they bought off the Net, but not real NA remains. The Native American Graves Protection Act (NAGPRA), would definitely be in effect, and it seems to be a very powerful piece of legislation. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native\_American\_Graves\_Protection\_and\_Repatriation\_Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Native_American_Graves_Protection_and_Repatriation_Act) You can look at the Kennewick Man for an example of NAGPRA in action. [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick\_man](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kennewick_man) ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/4 "2009-03-24T23:53:26Z")
NAGPRA only applies to Native American remains found on federal land. Kennewick Man was found on property administered by the Corps of Engineers and was, thus, subject to NAGPRA. Moaning Cavern is private property and, therefore, not subject to NAGPRA. Further, the remains on display at the cavern were found prior to 1 January 1988 and therefore not subject to the Cultural and Sacred Sites Act cited by **Duckster**. I have some familiarity with the situation at Moaning Cavern and, believe me, the local Native American community is well aware of what the proprietors have on display. ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/5 "2009-03-25T00:42:07Z")
> [@Ol\_Gaffer](#): > > i have some familiarity with the situation at Moaning Cavern and, believe me, the local Native American community is well aware of what the proprietors have on display. And what do they think? ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/6 "2009-03-25T00:54:59Z")
They generally think its appalling but they, currently, have little recourse. Requests have been made to take the display down but have been either ignored or rebuffed. However, their political influence is slowly growing and I would expect that in the near future they will have additional lines of pressure to place on the cavern proprietors. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/7 "2009-03-25T01:48:21Z")
> [@Ol\_Gaffer](#): > > They generally think its appalling but they, currently, have little recourse. Requests have been made to take the display down but have been either ignored or rebuffed. However, their political influence is slowly growing and I would expect that in the near future they will have additional lines of pressure to place on the cavern proprietors. Sounds like a public boycott, with an information picket line just outside the property entrance might be in order. During a busy weekend. With the media notified in advance. ---
**Author:** ![liirogue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dbc845/32.png) [@liirogue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liirogue)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/8 "2009-03-25T02:06:44Z")
**Ol’Gaffer** , thank you for the correction - I did not realize NAGPRA applied only to Federal lands. ---
**Author:** ![HawksPath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f07891/32.png) [@HawksPath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HawksPath)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/9 "2009-03-25T15:02:38Z")
Thank you for the information. I am shocked that real remains are treated thus. I thought the most likely scenario was that these were fake stories that they’d created to get more tourists with bones brought in for effect. I also was under the impression that remains on private land were still belonged to the native tribes of the area. ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/10 "2009-03-25T17:34:10Z")
> [@HawksPath](#): > > Thank you for the information. I am shocked that real remains are treated thus. > > I thought the most likely scenario was that these were fake stories that they’d created to get more tourists with bones brought in for effect. I also was under the impression that remains on private land were still belonged to the native tribes of the area. I have no doubt that the stories are fake. How on earth would they know if the children fell in or were interred postmortem? And how would you be able to tell if a child survived the fall and then wandered around looking for an escape? ---
**Author:** ![Reply](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/reply/32/15952_2.png) [@Reply](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reply)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/11 "2009-03-25T17:48:20Z")
> [@Ol\_Gaffer](#): > > I have no doubt that the stories are fake. How on earth would they know if the children fell in or were interred postmortem? And how would you be able to tell if a child survived the fall and then wandered around looking for an escape? Wouldn’t a proper burial, in a given body position and possibly with personal belongings, heirlooms, etc. look rather different from a lethal fall with broken bones, haphazard limb placement, etc.? And likewise, if the child wandered around down there with no way out and eventually died curled up in a ball in a series of winding passageways, well… I mean I guess the alternatives might be asphyxiation, suicide, dehydration, poisonous insects, etc., but I think they would all still fall (har) under the same “Jumped in, can’t get out!” syndrome, no? (Obviously, I’m not a forensic dead-person-guy.) ---
**Author:** ![Ol\_Gaffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Ol\_Gaffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ol_Gaffer)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/12 "2009-03-25T18:01:30Z")
Yeah, in a relatively recent, static environment that hadn’t been disturbed you could probably make those assessments. However, the remains in question are likely hundreds, if not thousands, of years old. In the intervening timeframe between burial and removal, the cave was subject to numerous intrusional events which obscured the original context, whatever that may have been. Just as background, the ethnographic native people living in that area at the time of contact didn’t use caves as burial areas which suggests that the cave burials (and there are others, not just at Moaning Cavern) pre-date their presence in that area. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2009, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cave-tour-and-human-bones/490645/13 "2009-03-25T20:17:48Z")
> [@Ol\_Gaffer](#): > > I have no doubt that the stories are fake. How on earth would they know if the children fell in or were interred postmortem? And how would you be able to tell if a child survived the fall and then wandered around looking for an escape? Calling it fake might be going a little far. If you assume that there was not an intentional burial, then you have to assume an accidental entrance, with a fall being likely. If there are a hundred bodies, it makes sense to assume that at least some of the victims survived the fall. If you did survive, you’d only have two options: sit around under the opening and hope someone finds you, or crawl around looking for another exit. So it seems like a reasonable assumption even if it’s the evidence could be interpreted in other ways.